tampabud

***Update*** I tested the coil as shown in the link RonJ provided with my NEW digital multimeter (awesome) and I should have been getting .6 to .8 ohms but I'm getting 1.1 ohms. What does that mean? I ran out of time so I will check the ICM tomorrow.



Hello everyone! Long time Honda lover here... I have owned/modded/raced several Civics in the past, but my latest addition to my "Hondas I've owned line-up" is a frustrating 1995 Honda Civic DX with the stock D15B7.

I purchased the car for $750, salvage title from a front end accident many years ago. The original owner stated he had replaced the head gasket and had the head resurfaced, but once he got everything back together, he didn't know how to do the timing. The body was straight, the interior in good condition, and being in SoCal I didn't want to pass this opportunity up.

Once I got the car home, I jacked up the front end, checked the oil/plugs and belts and all looked pretty good. I noticed it had new distributor cap and wires as well. I proceeded to take care of the timing belt and ensure both the crank and cam were lined up and talking to each other. Once completed and I got everything back together, I decided to go ahead and try to start it.

Every attempt to start resulted in a single click. I checked the dash for the check engine light... it would come on for the two seconds then go off just like it is supposed to do.

I took the starter off, cleaned everything checked for voltage at the relay and at the starter and it all looked good. (Had a friend help me here, I have no digital multimeter and don't know how to use the things anyways)

Once all back together and back on the car, I hopped in and it actually turned over! I was excited! But still no start.

I proceeded to check for spark, no spark at all. I looked online for possible solutions, and ended up replacing the coil and rotor just because I got antsy. I got it all back together and..... it still didn't start. I have noticed that I get a puff of smoke every once in a while when I try to crank it, coming from somewhere near the starter/distributor side of the motor. Since I'm alone, I can't watch to see where exactly it is coming from. In fact the noise it made was the exact same noise it made after the starter got put back together and in... Like the starter is turning, but nothing is trying to get the motor to turn over.

I have been able to see that the cam/timing belt are turning... I also tried to check compression, but got zero's across the board (hooked up my compressor to the gauge, determined the gauge was broke, thanks Autozone) I did note however that I could physically feel the air being pushed out the other plug holes. (my wife was finally able to help me for this part).

I am at a loss. I have a haynes manual, but am VERY limited on time and daylight due to work and kids and other obligations.

I have exhausted everything I know to do. I am here asking for help and will do everything I can to answer your questions in order to assist me in getting this car started.

CLIFF NOTES: Motor cranks, no spark and a puff of smoke from around the distributor/starter areas. Replaced coil and rotor, starter is getting proper voltage and it works, timing looks good.


Thanks for any help in advance!

Former User

Test the igniter unit.

tampabud

I will search on how to do that and try it. Thank you.

Former User

Advanced Ignition Troubleshooting - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra

cbaber

Use a long screwdriver to make contact with the valve cover, with the screwdriver tip just milometers from the coil. Crank it. Spark? You know what is missing (spark) so trace the problem back.

tampabud

***Update*** I tested the coil as shown in the link RonJ provided with my NEW digital multimeter (awesome) and I should have been getting .6 to .8 ohms but I'm getting 1.1 ohms. What does that mean? I ran out of time so I will check the ICM tomorrow.

tony_2018

Its out of spec?

TomCat39

Based on the FSM for the 92-95 civics yes it means it is out of spec and the FSM recommends replacing the coil.

However.... It is temperature dependant. If it was colder or hotter out than 68 degrees Fahrenheit..... The resistance will be different.

TomCat39

Here is the Igniter Input Test fsm page:



FYI for those who don't know, The term ICM (Ignition Control Module) is the Igniter in the FSM.

joey1320

That means you have too much resistance according to the specs set by Honda, therefore you could try swapping the coil and see if that fixes your spark problem.

TomCat39

Question, does the resistance go up or down with cold?

Could the ambient temperature currently be off enough to cause that resulting variance OP is getting.

FSM does say the spec is at 20C (68F). I know by my house right now it is much colder than 70F right now. I just don't know if resistance goes up or down in the cold.

I doubt the OP pulled the coil out, brought it in and let it sit inside a room set for 68-70F over night then tested it.

92ehatch

the variance could be the meter. my meter on a 0 ohm piece of wire will read .3 ohms

on a circuit that could read .8 ohms i will get 1.1 so i think that the reading is ok

Former User

The internal resistance of the multimeter must be subtracted from all resistance readings made in the low Ohm range.

TomCat39

Hate to break it to you but unless it's a super conductor, no wire is 0 ohm. It will have some resistance. Gold I believe is the least of the non super conductors. Might be micro-ohms but I think it might be in the mili-ohm range

And as far as I know they don't have any room temperature super conductors as of yet, they all require liquid nitrogen coldness last I knew.

92ehatch

Splitting hairs...getting into something irrelevant. His reading of 1.1 is perfectly acceptable. That's the point i was getting to

Former User

Sure, just make up conclusions as you go. Don't BS on tech forums.

TomCat39

Actually it's not irrelevant. If the OP doesn't follow the temperature specifications and also isolate the meter/lead resistance difference, the reading is inaccurate. That 1.1 ohm reading may or may not be acceptable, no way to know.

In example, if colder temperatures make the resistance drop, the car sits outside overnight, gets tested in the morning at 58F (10 degrees below spec) and OP gets a reading of 1.1 Ohm, that is FAR out of spec as the reading should be below the 600-800 milli-ohm range.

Touching the meter leads together will give you your meter variance, mainly do to the crappy conductance of the lead/probes themselves.

Now mind you, I'm not saying colder reduces the resistance, I actually don't know. But I think I will throw my spare coil outside tonight, and if I remember, I will test it in the morning so I know which way it goes with temperature. That is very handy information to know.

tampabud

Well, I took all the advice from you all and tested everything. It all looks good. I got frustrated and took the head off. The valves look like ish. So much build-up. it was bad. I only took the head off because the compression test I did drew zeroes across the board. Sooooooo... I'm lost and don't know what to do. I know I need to get new valves, and I need the head resurfaced as it seems the guy I bought it from lied to me. Beyond that, I don't know. I might save up for an LS swap instead. I don't know.

TomCat39

Well, too late to do any tests now to isolate the issue. Pretty much a machine shop and tear apart procedure now to locate the problem.

I think you'd have more fun doing the LS swap over rebuilding the D15B7.

As for the coil gig, I learned cold drops the resistance, so I assume heat will raise it.

Took my coil out, looked on the fridge and saw my thermometer showing 66F. The room I pull the coil out of is a bit warmer than the rest of the condo so I figure it was closer to 68F or 70F when I tested it.

My multimeter had an internal resistance of 1.6 ohm to 1.8 ohm when I pressed the probes together firmly.

I took the reading of the primary and got 2.4 ohm, and secondary of 16.33 Kohm.

Primary ≈68F:
2.4 ohm - 1.8 ohm = 0.6 ohm
2.4 ohm - 1.6 ohm = 0.8 ohm

Secondary ≈68F:
16.33 Kohm -1.8 ohm = 16.3282 Kohm

This morning I checked and it said the current temp outside near me was 44F

Primary ≈44F:
2.0 ohm - 1.8 ohm = 0.2 ohm
2.0 ohm - 1.6 ohm = 0.4 ohm

Secondary ≈44F:
15.68 Kohm - 1.8 ohm = 15.6782 Kohm

As can be seen, colder temperatures reduce the resistance and can provide you with a false sense of the part being good.

joey1320

You need to buy a Fluke hhaha.
**** even my cheapo Craftsman loaner DVOM only has an internal resistance of .3ohms

Well glad the OP jumped onto the conclusions mat and went ahead and yanked the head

cbaber

Of course the guy was lying. I could have told you that before you bought the car just based on the description. Any idiot that can replace a headgasket can set the timing. Do you honestly believe a person would go through all the effort and money to replace a HG and have the head resurfaced just to sell it off for $750 because of a timing issue?

Did you try another compression test tool? You said yourself you thought the tool was defective, rendering the 0 result void. In a no spark condition do you really think it was smart to pull the head, chasing compression when you know for a fact that spark is one of the missing elements you confirmed? This motor is toast & not worth rebuilding or throwing money at. Just buy a used JDM motor and be done with it.

joey1320

TomCat39

Why would I waste 200 bucks on a fluke when I know how to use a 10 dollar multimeter and get the same results?

I mean if I was rich, sure I would have nothing but the best. I also wouldn't be driving or working on a 5th generation Honda civic. I'd more likely be going through the pains of a 78 CVCC if I was with Honda at all. And I'd be driving a Tesla Roadster for fun.

tampabud

The autozone Compression gauge gave me zeroes across the board. I subsequently ordered a brand new compression gauge from amazon that had great reviews. I tested everything again and got zeroes across all four. In the moment I got frustrated and just pulled the head. When I walked it over to the oil drip pan and flipped it over to drain the rest of the oil I saw the state of the valves/head... it looked horrible. On another note, the cylinder walls and pistons looked great. No marks or swirls on the walls and the pistons were clean and shiny. It didn't look at all like the head had even been touched while he replaced the head gasket.

TomCat39

No swirls on the cylinder wall usually means heavy wear. The swirls you see are usually the hone marks. Mirror smooth is bad.

Also with sparkling piston tops, I'd seriously be wondering if it even has rings in it.

To get all zeros, it would mean no rings, or no head gasket what so ever or missing valve(s) in every cylinder.

When it's the usual suspects only one or two cylinders get low or zero compression.

Something is definitiely awry with that motor.

Dirty valves doesn't usually mean anything unless it's keeping them all from closing.

On my old head, I have an 1/8 inch of carbon built up on the bottom of all of them. Still worked like a champ.