Vtec04

I have a 2005 Civic that I put a D17A2 engine in that I just rebuilt and is in great mechanical condition. I understand that no one can say for sure, so please just make an educated guess. I know that the engine makes 127 HP stock, but it's far from stock. It has a D16Y8 intake manifold, throttle body and fuel rail on it, custom air intake, DC Sport 4-1 header, cat delete, 2.25 inch exhaust and power steering delete. What would you guess the horsepower is? It seems to run very strong for what it is, it had no problem pulling a 2600 LB trailer 9 hours through the mountains. The car isn't fast, but it sure pulls for a NA 1.7.

TomCat39

The only way to answer this is to put it on a dyno. A mustang dyno being the preferred.

JRCivic1

I agree TomCat... put it on a dyno. I am curious why you suggested a Mustang Dyno as the "preferred" testing device ??? The industry standard is the DynoJet.

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

Without changing internals, I'd wager you'd put down somewhere in the 105-115whp range with the mileage you have an an automatic transmission. If you netted more than 5-8whp from all those bolt-on's, it would go against every D17 dyno I've ever seen.

Vtec04

Thanks. Just curious- How much power could I gain by changing the stock camshaft to a Crower Stage 1? Thanks.

TomCat39

Everything I've read said the dynojet tends to give higher numbers and they recommended a mustang dyno and implied it as being more realistic.

I'm going off hearsay though. More than one mention of it when I was doing all the reading on it though so I assumed it was accurate info.

Doing current research on the two now.... I would like to withdraw the suggestion of the mustang dyno.... I was mislead. Thanks for bringing this to my attention JRCivic1. Dynojet is the better piece of equipment. And I say this as it appears to have one constant possible and the is the mass based rollers.

The mustang dyno, requires more information to plug into it to operate accurately for the car involved. This also means more chances for error.

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

Without investing in K-Pro to tune it? Not a whole lot, to be honest.

Vtec04

How much would K-Pro cost and what kind of gains could I get from just K-Pro? Thanks.

TomCat39

Just the K-Pro by itself won't net any real gains. It's the ability to get the car tuned to the mods that give you the gains.

To get pricing on K-Pro, just hop onto Hondata's website. They have pricing for all their products including K-Pro.

Vtec04

So I couldn't gain power by using the K-Pro to advance ignition timing and run it on 93 octane gas? How much more power could I make by tuning it to my mods? Thanks.

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

With K-pro, a Stage 1 cam, adjustable cam gear, and a real good tune... maybe 145whp on a good D17A2. But, the caveat is, it would have to be a manual transmission car. K-Pro doesn't work on auto's.

Used K-pro's still pull close to $850. For the amount invested, you'd be better off ditching the D-series.

Vtec04

I cant, but even if I could, I wouldn't spend that much for a D series ECU unless I was going to turbo it. Thanks though, you were very helpful as always.

TomCat39

Your act of advancing timing is the beginnings of tuning.

Your question was the k-pro alone implying without tuning.

You will get gains once some tuning is done.

A base map for your mods (not as likely to have your exact setup) will be like the beginnings of a tune and would show some gains. However, it will likely still be rough.

If you know how to tune, you can street tune it yourself.

Or you can pay someone to do it. Either way, the real potential of your changes won't be realized until it's tuned. The difference is night and day.

Vtec04

I'm not too concerned about part throttle performance since I obviously floor it when I want maximum power anyway, so WOT performance is what matters. Besides, how exactly would tuning the ECU improve WOT performance besides advancing ignition timing? Thanks.

TomCat39

Your AFR is just as critical at WOT as it is partial throttle.

That's why most pulls are done from 2000 rpm to rev limit.

you also have knock settings, timing settings and depending the vehicle, VTC settings.

So you drive everywhere with it floored?

Vtec04

I would guess that the A/F ratio is more important at WOT than partial throttle, which is probably why it goes rich at WOT. By knock settings, I presume you mean to keep the engine from knocking? The only time I heard the engine knocking was when it was pulling a 2500 LB trailer up a steep hill in 4th gear. It stopped knocking when I downshifted to 3rd gear. Also, by timing settings, do you mean ignition timing or valve timing? Thanks.

TomCat39

AFR is important at any throttle. And it's different ideal level depending on how much throttle from what I have been seeing in my research.

If you hear knocking, that's beyond knock the sensor detects to retard timing.

You don't have i-vtec so you won't have the VTC settings to adjust cam timing. But you will have ignition timing tuning available to you.

The biggest challenge you face is your setup is not very common so finding a basemap based on your setup will likely not be available.

This will be why a tune will need to be done as none of it, the WOT or Partial Throttle will be running ideally with any basemap you find.

Also note, a basemap is just there to begin the tune process. Even the same setup on two different but same motors will run totally differently.

Vtec04

So the knock sensor only detects slight knock that I couldn't hear? I didn't know that. Also, what is so uncommon about my setup? I would think that a D17 with bolt on's would be quite common. Thanks again for your help.

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

The fact that there's no real tuning out there for it, outside of K-Pro, AEM, or more expensive options means most people do not invest in tuning the D17 in the first place. If you're already investing over $1,500 to just start with the car's drivetrain... you're already halfway to a cheap K20 swap. And the K20 can handle FAR greater power ranges reliably. The D17 is also one of the least reliable D-series engines in Honda's history. The 01-05 platform in general shares nothing with its predecessors, and since the 7th generation Civic hatchback came with a K20 from the factory, its often looked at as the superior choice over the D17 platforms. Plus, the RSX isn't really all that different when it comes to price ranges for used vehicles, and it has a K20 as well.

In all reality, the vast majority of people who take the 01-05 Civic (non-hatchback) platform seriously are K-swapping their cars. I K-swapped mine back in '06 and have never regretted it (even at the inflated costs since it was "new" back then).