dan_g

My Accord is at 68k miles. I curretly use conventional fluid.

I was thinking of converting to Mobil Synthetic fluid that is good for 15k. Is this a good option? If yes what type of filter should I use for this long oil change that may last a year.

Appreciate your comments. Thanks

Dan

BLKFLSH

I use regular Mobil 1, but I still change it between 4 to 5000 miles. I know these "extended performance" oils claim they can go 15k miles, but I'm not going for it. In my owner's manual, Honda states that "You can use synthetic oil, but NOT to extend the change intervals". That's what it says in my 03 owner's manual, but Honda may have changed it's stance on synthetic since then. I change my own oil, so I don't mind doing it every 5000 miles. In the end, it's all up to you, it's your car.

94vtecmn

I haven't installed an AmsOil By-Pass filter system on my 03 Accord yet, but I have on my 95, using AmsOil 0w30, and I was going 25K between oil changes, or once a year. The car has 270k on it now, and has been running AmsOil since new (My brother bought the car new).

It uses about a quart every 6-7k right now, which isn't too bad at all.

If you do go for extended oil changes, you NEED to have better filtration to go along with it.

Little Viking

Scrap the better filtration idea. Just change your filter and top off with fresh oil. Unless that's what you meant by better filtration.

Using regular oil, I change my oil every 8,000 to 9,000 km (not miles). My 2001 civic (purchased new) has 194000 km and runs flawlessly. Today's engine oils are much better than they were 30-40 years ago. Odd that the oils got better but the recommendations to change you oil in "North America" didn't follow suit. They did change in the "UK"...

By the way, you change your oil not because of a lack of lubrication. You change it because the additives that carry carbon and mineral deposits break down and your oil filter clogs up. Oil will lubricate for a long, long time.

In another thread I posted a link to Wikipedia. There is an excellent article on engine oil. It is well worth the read. You may even decide to keep some of your money in your pocket and change your oil a little less often after you read it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

shipo

Funny thing about filtration; filters get more efficient as they get older. Said another way, by changing your filter mid oil change interval, then you're actually getting worse filtration.

Little Viking

Ummm... are you sure about that? I'd love to read some research that backs that theory up.

DCFIVER

Go for it. I do 7k OCI's myself using Penzoil Platinum. But I drive really aggressively. The only thing I would do were I you, is change the filter at about the halfway point. I am not aware of any filters that are designed to go 15k.
Thats news to me. Links??

slowcivic2k

Most vehicles that are designed for extended oil change intervals can use several means to "extend" the oils life, among the two most common:

1: Use of an engine oil cooler/oil pan designed to aid in cooling
2: Extra oil capacity to help maintain oil temperature

Engine oil is an odd subject, and even though oil technology may permit year long oil change service, there are other factors that need to be considered:

1: Ability for the engine seal up properly
2: Prevent oil component separation that leads to coking/varnishing

No other fluid in a vehicle has to deal with the introduction of fuel into it, and as such, these other oils generally have a very long service life when compared to engine oil. (Transmission, Power Steering)

Fuel breaks oil apart, and is the primary reason for changing it at regular intervals. The second most common reason would probably be poor viscosity, as oil breaks down in temperature cycles. As engines wear, this will worsen as the sealing surfaces on the rings increase and as the bore/piston wears, introducing more fuel into the oil. This is responsible for the bulk of the oils change in color, the rest would be solidification/varnishing of the oils components due to thermal breakdown.

These sames actions dry out the rubber that constitutes most engine seals, rendering them brittle and prone to leaks with age, or slight changes in PCV flow.

I would never buy an oil that claims 10,000 mile plus oil changes simply for the 10,000 mile service. I've torn apart many a engines that have severe coking due to this that have less than 40,000 miles on them. Its not worth it for that reason. That doesn't mean don't use that oil. I am in agreement that 3,000 is too short, but your changes should be based on how you drive: Mostly in town?, Mostly highway? Continuous high output? Continuous idling? These all affect how much fuel gets in the crankcase, and thus affect oil longevity.

To shipo: Oil quality will improve greatly with a filter change from a visual standpoint, most suspended matter can be removed in the first 10 or so miles, instantly improving the color of the oil. Most filters have a by-pass valve that opens under high oil flow situations, and this valve will open prematurely on filters that are near saturation, preventing catastrophic damage in exchange for dirty oil. It also serves to prevent the oil filter from blowing up under most severe conditions.

BLKFLSH

C'mon man. So I should be able to leave my oil filter on for the life of the car, and the oil will only get cleaner and cleaner. No more oil changes, sounds great. I'll spread the word.

shipo

The following pictures are from an engine with 143,625 miles on it when the heads came off. As you can see, the honing marks are still on the cylinder walls, and the engine is reasonably clean inside; all in spite of the fact that the recommended OCI for this engine was 6,000 and I ran it about 12,000 between oil and filter change. Also notice how clean the intake manifold is without so much as a fuel additive or a Seafoam treatment.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8887751@N02/2412848754/http://www.flickr.com/photos/8887751@N02/751628521/http://www.flickr.com/photos/8887751@N02/751628513/
A couple of points:

• Looking at oil from a visual perspective is an utterly worthless exercise, it means absolutely zip.
• A new filter has very large holes through which the oil can pass, the old filter is/was far less porous and as such is/was a superior filter in the sense that it is/was capable of filtering out smaller sized particles.
• As a filter ages its efficiency improves, right up to the point where it is no longer able to sustain the requisite flow (which for a healthy engine should be long after even the longest of extended oil change intervals. Simple common sense.

As for links supporting the above, I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, I'll post them later.

shipo

Supporting links:

Sorry for taking so long to get back on this one; for some reason I'm unable to access my SAE account. In lieu of that I've done quite a bit of searching for relatively authoritative sources which teach to the notion of filtration efficiency improving over time. What I've found were many-many anecdotal (which as an engineer doesn't pass muster) references to the phenomena of increased efficiency, but few authoritative sources (note: I'll try to get my SAE account sorted as that's where I believe I've read any number of authoritative studies on this subject over the years).

The following reference is *pretty* good, but not as good as I'd like:

• http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf

Another item of note:
In recent years Honda has been recommending oil filter changes every other oil change for some of their cars, and Honda isn't the only one. If clean oil filters (and air filters for that matter) were so good for engine longevity, why on earth would manufacturers even consider such long change intervals? The conspiracy theorists in the group will say it is to increase service revenue for the dealership base. Nonsense I say, the reason for the longer changes is because the used filter media does such a better job of filtering.

Little Viking

I still would like to read some documentation... Any documentation that supports an old oil filter is more efficient than a new filter. Until then, I am comfortable regularly changing mine!

Oil itself will lubricate for a long, long, long time. We don't change the oil and filter in our cars due to a lack of lubrication. We change it because the additives/detergents in the oil have broken down and are no longer performing the duties that we need them to do. The additives aid in cleaning the coke/carbon deposits/etc. from within the motor. The oil also helps to remove the microscopic metal particles that are created by all the moving parts. The filter traps the metal particles, carbon, etc. We don't want that crap floating around in the lubrication system. As the filter fills with debris (yes, the holes get smaller) but then the oil filter bypass kicks in. Does anybody know at what point this happens in your car? I sure don't! The filter is in a sealed can mounted in an awkward location that I must crawl under my vehicle to access. Even if it was front and center when I opened my hood, it is still in a sealed container that you can't see into. Is it good? did it fail? Who knows??? If it had a little pop up indicator to let us know when it was done... well that would be different. (career opportunity here folks, free of charge).



I didn't ask permission to use said link, I just did a Google search and grabbed it... hope I don't offend anybody.

As you can see, the bypass valve is well covered.

If you head over to the FRAM website (not promoting FRAM it was just what I typed when I looked up oil filters) you will find the following information when you click on oil filters:

1.FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency and dirt holding capacity using FRAM XG3387A, XG8A, and XG4967 and their leading economy filter model equivalents under ISO 4548-12 for particles > 20 microns

I'm willing to step out on a limb and say that a filtration of 20 microns if far superior to oil being directed back into the motor via the filter's bypass valve...

Little Viking

[QUOTE=shipo;47838481]

The following reference is *pretty* good, but not as good as I'd like:

• http://www.donaldson.com/en/filterme...ary/052024.pdf

QUOTE]

Hi Shipo, please keep looking...

Quote from page #10 of 16 from the link you supplied:

"Consumers must also make maintenance decisions about the air filters in their cars. This
user group is relatively unsophisticated in their knowledge of filter maintenance and
function. Air filters are perhaps the most easily serviced but least understood parts on a
vehicle. Other common replacement parts on a vehicle such as tires, wiper blades, oil
and oil filters work best when new. However, this is not the case with conventional air
filters. Since most air filters rely on the formation of a dust cake to improve the
performance of a filter media, over-servicing can lead to dire consequences from
inadequate engine protection. [6]"

This does not support your claim...

shipo

[QUOTE=Little Viking;47838573]Please don't tell me you honestly think barrier method filters work different when one is filtering particulate out of air and the other is filtering particulate out of a fluid.

Like it or don't, believe it or not, the filtration process works the same way.

There are extensive studies published on this very subject in the SAE archives; I'll get to them sooner or later.

slowcivic2k

You found an engine that has little build up, congratulations, I suppose I could find pictures of sludged engines for you to see, but I don't think its necessary. Sludging does happen, for many reasons that I elaborated on above. If you don't consider that you do so at your own peril, which at this point, seems pretty good for you.

Oil color indicates suspended matter, and therefor not pointless, otherwise it would never change color.

The filter is able to remove particles down to its specified micron level, anything else is a bonus/not required, or else they would have specified a larger filter with a smaller micron rating, or ran 2 of them in series with different micron ratings to achieve the same result.

Seriously? .5 microns? No oil will ever require filtering to that level, even diesel fuel is generally filtered down to 5 microns. The report claiming that engine wear is significantly improved due to lack of particles in the 1-5 micron range could never be realized. Fuel itself serves as the biggest proponent to engine wear, which is why engine oil must be changed more frequently. "Clean room" quality is not realistic, unfortunately it never will be.

shipo

Yes, sludging does happen, but typically not from an oil filter that went for two oil changes.

I'm sorry, that is incorrect; there are many oils which contain additives which darken when exposed to heat, Mobil 1 being a prime example. Take a sample of Mobil 1 with say 5,000 miles on it, the sample will look nearly black, however, if you send that same sample out for Used Oil Analysis, it will most likely come back showing the additive package and the viscosity grades are still good to go for many thousand of miles.

A gross oversimplification; yes, oil filters are rated with an arbritrary micron rating, however, what we the consumer see as advertised and what is a proper interpretation of the Beta Rating (or whichever other rating us used by any given manufacturer) are two very different things. Although a filter may be rated at say 15 microns, it will most likely be capable of grabbing particles only 2 microns in size (note: some, but precious few), while at the same time passing particles as large as 200 microns. Long story short, there is no common standard by which all filter makers rate their filters.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

DCFIVER

This is wrong. Oil will also change color due to heat cycling. Other than looking for the presence of foreign liquid, using the color of engine oil for analysis is indeed pointless....

DCFIVER

Post the paper numbers.

BLKFLSH

You guys seem to do an awful lot of studying on oil. And you still don't seem to agree with each other. You keep analyzing and reading up, and I'll change my oil when the manual says so. Everyone thinks their an expert on oil, but one engine is not like another engine (some sludge, and some don't), and just because the oil will last 10k miles in this engine, doesn't mean it will last that long in another engine.

slowcivic2k

I don't claim to be an expert on oil, nor do I need to be. However I do understand what happens to oil in the field, and I could sure care less about what a lot of people say about getting their oil "analyzed", and talking from spec sheets and reports, talk about overkill. Its oil, buy some more.

I must however bow to your usage of common sense, tis a rarity these days.

Little Viking

[QUOTE=shipo;47838792]What I think is irrelevant at the moment. You are the one who made the claim that old oil filters perform better than new filters and as such, it is better to not change them as frequently. I asked for some documentation to back that claim up. You then provided a 16 page document to help support your claim. I merely point out that on page 10 of the document you provided, it clearly states that Oil filters work best when new... that is not a good document to use for supporting your claim.

You still mention additional documentation is available to support your position. I believe that I have fulfilled my request to you by actually reading your supporting documentation. I would very much like to read the documentation that you talk about. I promise I will read it if you post it...

There are other comments on this thread and others about superior wisdom and expert knowledge. I will be the first to admit I am not an expert nor do I feel I possess superior knowledge. Please try to keep the antagonizing comments to a minimum. If people get upset, the debate will cease and nobody current or future reading this thread will be any wiser. If filters indeed become better as they become seasoned... Don't you think that would be good information for everybody to know about? I sure do! And if this is the case, how long of an interval is optimum before changing the filter? At no point do I recall Shipo saying that oil filters should never be changed.

So please, continue this thread in a civilized manner so that we can all learn. If someone chooses to run gear oil in their motor and never change their filter... I really don't care. If someone chooses to follow Honda's guideline for a specific viscosity changed at a specific time/mileage interval. Guess what... I still don't care. If my internal combustion motors (not just the 3 Honda's in the driveway) will benefit from me changing the filter a little less frequently. Well, now I care!

If there is actual documentation to disprove what I am guessing is all but what 1 person posting in this thread believes. Then I would think that the vast majority of us would be very impressed to read it.

Shipo, I may not agree with you (yet) but I will be the first to say "good on you for posting what you believe and being willing to try and back it up in the face of much opposition". I am more than willing to keep an open mind, please proceed!

BLKFLSH

While I am willing to believe that a filter can actually filter better as it ages, that knowledge will do very little for me. If your filter can filter oil for 10k miles, on your engine, using your chosen brand of oil, doesn't mean it will do the same for me, with my particular engine, filter, and oil. So all this information is pretty much useless to anyone except you.

shipo

So, if you own a Civic and if your Owner's Manual recommends one filter change every other oil change, will you do it that way or will you change the filter every oil change?

BLKFLSH

If I owned a Civic, and the manual said just to change the oil and not the filter each time, I'm sure I would be reluctant, since it would be the first time for me, but I might try it. My Accord manual however, says to change the oil and filter each time.

shipo

As does mine. The thing is, I've had any number of cars which recommended a filter change every other oil change. Did I follow that recommendation? No. Why? Because I ran synthetic oil and my "regular" oil change interval was nearly double the factory recommendation.