keilux

My sisters CEL trip, she took it to AdvanceAuto to run the code, its a camshaft position sensor, however they could not tell her if it was the intake or exhaust sensor. Is this normal?

I am not sure what kinda of scanner they use, but I figure if its OBD2 it should say exactly which sensor it is, or they are just trying to get her to buy both of them... So she dropped by the dealer, they want $50 to check the codes... ouch! And she has to wait til Wenesday.. Hopefully they could tell her which one it is... I thought about taking back to AA or somewhere else to run it again and see if they can figure out which one it is, and save her some cash if we can figure it out.

My second question on the matter is buying a new sensor, I think they (AA) something like $120 and $80 depending on the sensor, not sure on brand or anything... WOuld it be better to get a Honda part? And if so are there any places online to that are good to shop, maybe forum sponsors?

Thanks!

soon2bdropped

if it is camshaft codes most likely it is camshaft sensor out of phase. scretched timing chaim.. does the car bog down? what happens if you try to floor it?

redbull-1

Can you get the trouble code and post it?

redbull-1

It may not be the sensor. Check these two threads:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh...osition+sensor

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/...po341-code-obd

keilux

I only drove the car once, it that was months ago, so I can not really comment on the bogging. However I have been a passenger a few times, I just had her take me for a ride, hear are some details.

Lets start from the beginning: she started it up from a cold and there is a metal on metal screeching noise, best way I can relate it to is a start motor engaged, she said this is the first time at start up, but would happen on accerlation from time to time a few days before the CEL trip, she described it coming from the back of the engine, and her comment on the sound is the engine going million rpm at once, LOL

So after the car was running I noticed could hear the engine noises sound like a diesel, a tapping noise perhaps from the camshafts? IDK I hear this on my daily driver (hyundai accent) on start up, this is because they have hydraulic lifters, within 2-3seconds its gone. In her case it went on for a few miles down the road, finally stopped once we returned home.

On the bogging aspect naturally it did not happen at all though the drive, but she did say at times from a light the car seemed to be low on power.. SO I would take this as a bog.

Then she mentioned about a shutter noise/vibration at idle, to me this sounded and felt like a misfire, something out of sequence.

I gotta see about getting the paper off her, hopefully there were codes on it. Thanks for the links I will check them out!!

Perhaps some of this can be related to her excessive oil consumption https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-accord-crosstour-2003-2012-118/urgent-oil-consumption-leak-2604462/ , but I checked the level before we drove, its on the low side of the dipstick but not low enough that it would be out of oil. I make sure she or I check it weekly.

keilux

So I just started it up again, the "knock/diesel" noise now only is noticeable when the car is in a gear, btw the engine was warm. Before it would happen while in park, gear driving etc. Plus there was the misfire/shuttering, she noted that it only happens after driving awhile, so I did not notice that during the little idle phase I had.

redbull-1 I read the threads, thank you! I hope thats not the case...

soon2bdropped

i can guaranteed u have scretched timing chain. done plenty of those. pull off the valve cover and look at the timing marks on both cam pulley and go from there.

keilux

Wow thats Karma for ya, thanks for the threads So I let the car sit for about an hour after I topped it off to make sure it was not over filled, started it up it again.... something is F'ed up... sounds like the timing chain is out... It runs for maybe 5 seconds but very very rough like it is runnng on 2 cyclinders, aka out of time. Just as you guys mentioned... I just find it odd that this did not happen before, and it was only after me adding about 1/2-3/4qt of oil....

Is there anyway of knowing if the valves could be damaged?? Or would that require a complete teardown?

keilux

Out of curiosity, if the camshaft/crankshaft out of time or the timing chain has slipped, would that, trip the camshaft position sensor?

I had the car towed to the dealer, they ran the CEL it was a PO341, so they want to replace the sensor..IDK which one.. For $365, and I think that includes new plugs ( they were foulded), probably alot of that has to do with the oil consumption/burn.The guy that did the service is suppose to call me tomorrow, he was done for the day, and I can discuss with him, some points you guys brought up. From the research it sounds as though it maybe the timing chain, but I find it odd that it rain fine one sec, turned it off restarted now does not want to run...

KWayRacing

There are a few things that can set P0341. Least likely of which is the CMP(Camshaft Position Sensor). I don't think replacing the CMP is going to cure your problem. THe cam chain, the VTC actuator, or the VTC control solenoid are the three most likely suspects. Let's talk about how many miles are on your sis' Accord first. There is a troubleshooting tree for this code that the dealer has access to. It is a Service News article from 09/09. So new the dealer/tech may not be aware. Let them know. I have seen VTC control solenoid valve and out of time timing cause this code. I have yet to see any chains stretched too far, failed tensioners, or faulty VTC actuators(on this model anyway). Infrequent oil changes causes more wear to the timing chain. , but from the sound of it I could see a sticking/faulty VTC actuator causing the problems. Either way I would advise the dealer of the SN article above. Oh yeah for the dealer to do this complete Diagnostic I would expect to pay 1-3.5 hours of labor, and depending on the result is depending on the amount to be fair to both parties. Heres a breakdown of the diagnostics.
Remove and replace cyinder head cover. .5 hours
Roll engine into time. Verify Timing. .5 hours
Remove chain tensioner cover. Verify tensioner operation. .5 hours
If all ok until now put back together and install known good VTC Actuator control solenoid valve. Test drive. .5 hours -1.0
If still fails, then check VTC actuator operation. 1-1.5 hours.


At the end of each step there is a result. Again, I doubt they will ever get to the last check , but .. 100-350 dollars in diag is well worth it IMO because the $365 they have you set for is probably mistargeted.
These are all my opinions without ever looking at this specific vehicle. Hope this helps.

keilux

Thanks for the repsonse, I will bring those points up to the Tech tomorrow. As far as the price, I would figure at the high side of $60/hr, they quoted about $170ish in labor, so given that they are saying 3hrs to replace the CMP and the plugs, ouch!

I think she has 108K on the Accord. As I started before is consumes oil, probably burning, as there is no leaking that would cause it to go thru almost a qt every 3-400miles...HAs it been run low on oil or past a change... since she has owned it 6months, its only seen the low mark on the dipstick, usually running in the mid mark, oil has been changed once in 10k miles, about 5kmiles ago, still below OEM internvals. However there has probably been atleast 6qts of oil added since the last change, so it gets a refresh every couple of weeks, LOL

KWayRacing

60 an hour at a dealer? Thats cheap. That doesn't sound good on the oil consumption levels. I wonder if those miles are real. Thats really low miles to have oil consumption problems. Or indicates the previous owners severe lack of maintenance. Either way post back with results.

keilux

On the rate per hour I really have not clue I was just trying to make a guess at it. Yea she has gone thru a ton of oil, however given the rate of burn you do not see any blue smoke out the tail, nor does it have an aroma of oil burning... I would love to see what the cat looks like, I guess thumbs up to Honda for that, but its gotta be oil filled!!

Found out the camshaft poition sensor that is bad is bank one, intake. Now the dilema is have them do it (sensor and plugs), or have it towed back to my house by AAA and I do and the spark plugs, which is a walk in the park for me. But if thats not the issue then it will have to be towed back there to find the culprit.... I could check the timing chain, however the reason the car is there is because of the oil consumption, don't want them coming back to us saying you did this or that, this scheduling has been going on for a few months now... The camshaft sensor just happened a few days ago, so we just had it towed there for them to diagnose, but they cant until the car can run...

keilux

I just found out they did the service work, changed the camshaft position sensor and spark plugs... low and behold still does not run... they are checking into the timing chain, tensioner, and some other stuff with the vlave train, just as you guys have noted.... However the guy did say that the camshaft position sensor was bad, he said it should read 19ohms, or higher but it only read 17ohms, can anyone confirm this? Is ohms the correct measurement? And would something in the valvetrain cause it to read lower?

Thanks for all the help!

keilux

One thing i forgot to mention, they did check the timing, he said the chain skipped by 6 teeth. How bad is that?

KWayRacing

Unfortunately that is a lie. 2 ohms is a negligible differnce. Meaning would not matter. The CMP did not need to be changed. If you read the Honda service manual for DTC p0341 NOWHERE does it suggest that a faulty CMP sensor could be the problem. The spec being out is BS so they don't have to pay for a part that was incorrectly diagnosed. I hate to see this happening. I would in no way pay for that CMP. Ask them to show you in their service manual the diagnostic troubleshooting tree for DTC P0341. And show you the procedure to resistance test and the specs. They will not do it because it is not in the manual. It is pure bullshit. If the technician actually read the service manual or searched Hondas online info website for technicians he/she would not have misdiagnosed it so poorly. It is probably a younger "tech" that pulled a code and threw a part at it, then a more senior tech became involved and led him down the right diagnostic path. The CMP's resistance value has nothing to do with dtc P0341. Pure bullshit. Man I am mad. It is the bogus ***** out there that **** me off and make the general population believe every technician/business is this way. I would schedule an appointment with the service manager and ask him that the technician working on your car be present. I would not be rude at all, or make many demands, but I would ask them to show you how they derived at their original diagnosis. However showing up unannounced will catch them more off guard.
6 teeth are many teeth, if only on one cam but a combo of 3 and 3 while is not good at all it is preferable to 6 on one cam. Sounds like the car needs a new Timing chain, guide set and tensioner. At dealer pricing for the parts/labor I would bet you get get close to replacing the engine somewhere else. Something to think about with the oil consumption factor involved. Hate to spend 1200 only to find out the motor is gobbling oil. OP check your PMs

keilux

Thanks for the PM and the reply. The parts and price you mentioned is correct. One thing I may have not stated is this is not a Honda Dealer, it was purchased used from a Pontiac dealership, so perhaps they do not have all the correct info for diagnosing the Camshaft sensor, or they were looking to start small then work there way up... The reason it was taken to them was because be bought it off of them, and noted the oil consumption after a few weeks of owning the car.

Some new info I found out today is their head technican ans service manager met with my mother and said the timing chain and other parts "could fix" the oil consumption, but "not likely" As I figured this leads to worn piston rings, which people noted in my oil consumption thread. And again the whole reason why the car was up there in the first place, however their lack of communication resulted in the timing chain issue. We were in contact with them for months about getting the car looked at for the oil consumption, they said they would take care of us, but kept giving us the run-around, waiting to hear from this person, or get in touch with that person and so on.... Could this have been avoided if they would have got things together, I think so...

Their first response was they will give her $5k on a trade (she paid $8k plus tax, title, plate so close to $9k) which I guess is not bad given the current state, but... Right now its the engine issues... The reason they said this was because of some damage on the passenger side of the car, my sister light hit a guard rail, and made a perfect straight line crease on the front fender, door, and very light on the rear door, they said it was $2700 worth of damage, don;t doubt them.

However, take that damage away, would they still offer a trade (say 7700), fix the engine cam timing and piston rings (for the oil consumption) and attempt to resell the car? I doubt it... She still wants the car, she likes it. So I told her and my mother for them to pursue the engine problems, hopefully tomorrow I can make my way up there to speak with them and get some good answers on how they are going to go about this.

KWayRacing

Ohhhh. Pontiac CMPs do fail and quite often. This is a lack of available info. for them.

soon2bdropped

either way i wouldve check cam timing to see if both cams out of time. and also being thats its off by 6 teeth is bad. you can skip on teeth and be okay. but 6 teeth off? bent valves??

HondaFan6975

Kway I still agree with your original pissed off post.... Pontiac dealer or not don't they still have at least AllData or similar if they are going to work on other makes than their own dealership? It clearly sounds like a stretched timing chain for this issue and the oil consumption is something else entirely.

keilux

Would low on oil/consumption cause extra stress or wear on the tensioner, and the chain, making it jump or stretch? Lack of lubrication would increase the the temperatures or the parts (metal on metal-no oil film). It ran fine one minute, the next it did not... But I figure the timing chain was culprit. Is there a time period the timing chain needs to be replaced?

If we were to go about getting the block rebuilt, what would I need; piston rings, gaskets/seals, any concerns with the block itself? Plus I know I need the timing stuff. Any rough idea in parts I would be looking at?

Or would I be better off getting a used replacement engine?

Or just trade the car in, dealer offered $5500 for a trade, she paid $8k, but looking at similar cars (accords, altimas, sontas) when all said an done she is looking at a total of loan after 7yrs being close to $14k, and I am not sure if my sister can afford that right now with going to school.

jovyarcher

@keilux,


if these occur its better to replace the timing chain every 6 months to prevent any error. and as for the, I suggest getting a used replacement engine, and some parts like the Camshaft Position Sensor is needed just in case.