waciii

Having lots of trouble resolving an issue with no crank at the starter.

My circuit diagram shows a "Starter Cut Relay" but I cannot locate anything that matches the inbound wire colors, cannot locate much help online, and the dealer service department didn't know what that was.

Is there in fact a "Starter Cut Relay" in play on my 92 EX MT?
Where is it and what does it look like?
Does anyone know the part number or link to the part at Majestic?
Dealer suggested main relay could be the problem but I'm getting fuel flow but no crank. Runs if push-started.

I've confidently eliminated battery, starter, ignition switch electronics. Am I missing anything?

As I understand it, I'm left with:

edit: Clutch Safety Switch
Starter Cut Relay (if this really exists)
Main Relay (if this can cause the starter not to engage)
Wires

journeyforce

Hello,

You have a Manual Trans? Did you verify that the Clutch safety switch works? This is a switch that is behind the clutch pedal that acts as a safety feature to keep the car from starting in gear (sort of like a neutral safety switch on an automatic)

Good luck

L

journeyforce

Also check out this thread

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-prelude-4/starter-cut-relay-2130247/

waciii

Thanks ... forgot to list the clutch safety switch ... will edit the original post to add that.

I saw the the thread on the starter cut relay in my search but didn't know what to make of it ... I don't have any kind of key/ecu synch features with my accord.

But I guess it does make sense if it's one of the relays on the fuse box, but I can't figure out which one.

dtapia

this does have a starter relay and it is under the dash on the drivers side i dont recall its location since its been about 10 years since i seen 1 fail. if you send me a email i will send you a diagram of the circuit and the relay test.

Dinotapia@sbcglobal.net

journeyforce

So assuming it is not the clutch safety switch and something in the fuse box, I pose another thought to you:

I know you checked the battery and starter but did you check the ground to the starter and the wiring from the battery to the starter?

Let me ask you this also

Did you buy the car new? If not did former owner have an alarm/ ignition cut off on it?

Have you any anti theft device on the car?

Good luck

L

waciii

L:

I'm the original owner. No anti-theft device.

I don't know of any ground to the starter. Just the solenoid wire and the batt wire. I'm assuming it grounds through the transmission housing. And I have not checked the wiring from the battery to the starter.

HOWEVER, in one of my attempts to troubleshoot this, I wired a switch directly from the battery positive terminal to the starter solenoid connector. The car fired right up. I presume this means both the battery cable and ground is sufficent.

BUT, I'm assuming it fried the starter because it never started up via the switch again after the first time. I only got a noise like it was slamming the gear out into the flywheel but nothing would turn.

I have a new starter that has been bench tested which is in the loop now. But basically the same behavior as original. No crank at all. After I installed a new ignition switch electronics harness, I got a couple of noises out of the starter like it was trying to push the gear out but since the first couple of tries not even that. No starter noises at all. Just a bit of relay noise out of the dash.

dtapia

what is the battery volts measure at the solenoid wire while cranking ?
it really sounds like the electrical portion of the ignition switch. pretty common.

waciii

That's what I thought it was too because it was 10.7 V at the solenoid wire while cranking.

But I replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch with a brand-new Genuine Honda part and have basically the same results. Haven't remeasured volts at the solenoid since the new ignition electronics.

dtapia

Hmm strange need some #'s I looked on the etm and see the starter relay in the circuit but I don't see its location

billyrusa

The starter cut relay is probably bad if you can start the engine by connecting the battery to the starter. The starter cut relay is inside the under-dash fuse/relay box. Check the attached diagram to find it in the fuse box. Unplug the relay and test it. Fot a car with MT and without security alarm, this relay does not do anything. You can simply jump the A and B (B is connect to starter)terminals in the sucket of this relay to bypass the relay.

journeyforce

My I ask you how you checked and proved the clutch safety switch was good?

I really think it sounds like that is your culprit as if the switch was bad, you would not be able to even get it to crank over. Make sure you got the right switch and not the brake switch

I know 98+ had chips in the keys to help the car resist being stolen, but what did the 1990-1993 models use?

Good luck

L

dtapia

good find i just thought of the fuse box diagram right now as you posted .

waciii

L:

Haven't been able to devote sufficient time to this. Haven't eliminated the Clutch Safety Switch yet. Just now digging up in there and getting enough stuff out of the way to get to the clutch safety switch. I plan to pull it and try to bypass it as soon as possible.


Billy:

Is that accurate? I've been working from this reference although I have some reason to suspect its reliability:

billyrusa

Sorry, I am refering a 93 manual and assuming it is same as 92 because they are same generation. Unfortunately, they are not same. The Rear Window Defogger relay is definitely not the Starter Cut Relay. In your diagram, there is a Starter Relay. Is that the Starter Cut Relay? The wire color on that ralay matches the wire color of the Starter Cut Relay. BLK/GRN should be grounded for a MT without security alarm system or connected to the clutch switch. BLK/WHT should be connected to starter solenoid. Another wire is BLK/WHT also in my diagram which is connected to the ignition switch. hope this will help.

billyrusa

I found this circuit schematic. I believe the STARTER RELAY in your diagram is the Starter Cut Replay. In this circuit schematic, the BLK/WHT(7) on the under-dash fuse box is directely connected to the ignition switch for a MT car without security.

waciii

Billy:

Definitely helps. Thanks. I'm pretty sure your right about the starter cut relay on my diagram.

It's just not been easy for me to work up under there and get to the right things. I've opened it up to the point where the Main Relay, Fan Control Timer, and Clutch Saftey Interlock is easily accessible now. So I'm getting there.

I sure wished they'd made a panel on the left end of the dash that could be taken off without removing the entire dash.

Thanks for the help.

billyrusa

Check something simple first before you try to reach the starter cut relay. Fuse 9 (7.5A) in the underdash fuse box. If it is ok, press on the clutch padal and turn the ignition switch to start, you should have batterry voltage on the BLK/GRN side of the clutch safery interlock swtich. If not, check the clutch interlock switch. If yes, try to reach the starter cut relay and test it.

waciii

Damn.

Got to both the starter cut relay and the clutch interlock switch and both tested fine.

Clutch interlock switch showed no continuity when released and continuity when pressed. Tried manually engaging the switch in case it was just badly adjusted and no-joy.

Starter cut relay showed no continuity across A-B when C-D disconnected from battery and continuity when C-D connected to battery.


Can the MAIN RELAY affect a no-crank situation or only interrupt the injectors and fuel pump?

Am I left with the wires?

Somebody please suggest something here. I'm running out of ideas.

billyrusa

Use multimeter to measure the terminals one by one.
First, make sure fuse #9 is ok and the ground G202 is ok.
Depress clutch paddle and turn the key to start, test the voltage at starter solenoid. If there is no voltage, test the BLK/GRN end of clutch interlock switch and the terminals of clutch cut relay. In this way, you can find witch part is malfunction. If you can start the engine by jumping the battery to starter solenoid, the main relay should be ok.

waciii

Where is G202? My reference doesn't show one.

I'll reconnect everything and start checking circuits tomorrow.

This is just weird though. At one time or another, everything (fuse 9, batt, starter, ignition electronics, clutch interlock, starter cut relay, push-starting and drives fine, jumping battery to solenoid) have all legitimately tested out as ok. Very frustrating.

Thanks again for you help.

billyrusa

If you can not find the G202, try to do this:

Make sure fuse #9 is ok. Depress clutch paddle and turn key to start. As you mentioned, the start does not crank. In this case, you should not have battery voltage on the terminal of the solenoid of the starter (BLK/WHT) wire. Double check it. Test the BLK/GRN wire connected to clutch interlock switch. If do not have battery voltage, the switch has problem. If have, make sure the battery voltage appears on the BLK/GRN terminal of the clutch cut relay. Then, if you can not find the ground G202, just simply ground the BLK wire terminal of clutch cut reply. If the solenoid has voltage and starter cranks, the G202 has problem. If not, the clutch cut relay has problem.

dtapia

on the etm their is not a g202
the ground for the starter relay is g401 on the left kick panel

dtapia

here is a etm page for reference.

billyrusa

Sorry, I meant G200 based on the circuit schematic. Anyway, if there is not a G200 or you can not find it, just ground BLK wire end of the starter cut relay for testing. If the relay functions and you have battery voltage on starter solenoid, the ground has problem.

Or simply use multimeter to test if the clutch cut relay is grounded well.