voidoverload

I have looked at several videos on YouTube describing showing how to take the wheel cylinder out. My issue is, I haven't had anything done with the brake fluid, lines or cylinders since I bought the car 2 years ago. I snapped the bleeder valve off of my passenger side rear drum brake. All of this began when I set out to do a full fluid change (brakes, coolant, power steering, transmission) which all have been neglected.

I am worried that the entire thing is so corroded that I will either A. have to remove cylinder and completely replace the brake lines or B. realize that I am in way over my head and fork over $$$ to a nearby mechanic to fix everything. I'd love to figure this out myself. I also worry that I don't have the right tools to fix this issue.

Any help greatly appreciated!

holmesnmanny

drums on our cars are not for the faint of heart for first timers tbqh

when pulling the upper spring you should have another wheel cylinder on hand because it's not likely the seals on the wheel cylinder will hold in place and you will wind up needing to replace the wheel cylinder which holds the bleeder anyhow

if you choose to take it on i would highly suggest this tool which you turn and lock it onto the upper spring by turning it clockwise to get the spring off the brake shoe, you just gotta kinda muscle it off and then back on when reinstalling

the real key is to go fast, don't go slowly

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002SQU8Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502841044&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=lisle+bra ke+spring+tool&dpPl=1&dpID=31wmVT2aqtL&ref=plSrch

voidoverload

So, I was able to get the drum off. I have access to all of the internals. I won't be able to get to harbor freight for the stuff I need until Sunday. But I was thinking I need the special flaired wrenches because the ones I have just are not working. I sprayed down the 3 bolts with a ton of penetrating oil and I will continue to do that until hopefully it is loosy goosey. Next step would be use the torch. But I'd like to avoid that because I don't want to screw anything up major.

If​​​ this doesn't work I don't know what to do.

I got the drum off and sprayed down the 3 bolts with penetrating oil. Seriously hoping that will work at loosening up those bolts. If it doesn't work I don't know what I would do.

Alternative, I have thought about hacking off both the bolts and end of the brake line. Using a piece of scrap would and hammer to knock out the old wheel cylinder and using a double flare fitting and new connecter to hook up to the new wheel cylinder. Not sure if that would work but just throwing ideas around.

holmesnmanny

What bolts are you talking about ?

https://www.hondapartscheap.com/auto...rake-drum-scat

voidoverload

It isn't defined in that link you sent. The bolts that screw the wheel cylinder to the back plate. Though, I realize that may be a horrible idea if I cut off the head of the screw and can't get the body of the screw out of the hole.

holmesnmanny

It's part 12 in the diagram I sent. There are 4 required, two for each side. You need to remove the shoes then the wheel cylinder comes right off after removing both bolts.

You will need a 10mm flare wrench for the brake line fitting, don't try using a regular box wrench on it or you will strip it, and you do not want to strip that line.

One thing to note is that if there's enough of the bleeder bolt showing you might be able to grab it with a pair of vice grips and get it off, then just install another bleeder bolt in it's place. However, if the bolt snapped flush then you will need to replace the wheel cylinder after all.

voidoverload

I got the line wrench's. However it would not come off. I tried just about everything. I used penetrating oil. I hit it over and over again. Are you saying that I needed to take the shoes off first for it to come off or that it doesn't matter.

I did end up rounding off the edges in my attempt however. I can see that the line is between 6-10 inches in length and is very accessible so I have no issue replacing it. My fear is not getting those retaining bolts out.

Pulling the bleeder bolt out isn't an option. However if what you're saying is accurate and my misstep is forgetting to take the shoes off then hopefully I'm not too screwed. I read somewhere that I can get new brake lines at most local auto parts stores. I hope they can help me find the right one!!

Thank you for your help thus far. I do really appreciate it.

holmesnmanny

the top of the shoes wrap around the wheel cylinder into the notches so yes you will need to remove the shoes to get the wheel cylinder off

poorman212

The rear shoes are not that hard, really no special tools needed.

I won't do this justice in words but here you go.

Remove the lower spring that hold the two shoes together. Remove the hold down clips. Slip the lower part of the shoes from the "pin/pivot" - you want them to the outside of the pin/pivot. Push the top side of the shoes, you are trying to compress the wheel cyl just a bit. The grab the top of the shoes and pull they and slip them from the wheel cyl. Then tilt them from the top down so you can get to the e-brake cable. Once that is off the shoes are off......

To install, assemble most everything onto the new shoes while they are on the ground.....see pic. then just reverse the process.

voidoverload

I have to apologize, I had to travel recently and I wasn't able to work on my car for the last week and a half.

Originally, I snapped off my bleeder valve because I didn't use a flare wrench and I used way too much force and not any penetrating fluid (in over my head and didn't know it was rusted beyond belief). Still not taking the warning I played around with the brake fluid line with a box wrench but in totality I didn't use very much force.

After that I used a flare wrench and ended up rounding the edges. From what I can tell, there are 4 things that interact with the backing plate. 1. Brake fluid nipple 2. Brake line 3. 2 retaining bolts holding the wheel cylinder to the backing plate.

Assuming that I've taken the shoe off. I need to remove those bolts holding the wheel cylinder to the backing plate. Once those are off, I can unscrew the brake line ** not from the wheel cylinder ** but from the point where it connects to the chassis. I've already rounded it off and if it means saving me some hassle buying a new 10in brake line isn't gonna kill me. Put a plug into the opening I made when I removed the brake line to avoid brake fluid from spewing out. install new wheel cylinder and brake line. replace shoes, springs and drum. This may or may not be correct, I am just trying to get a better idea of what I am supposed to do because: these bolts are rusted to the backing plate like nothing I've ever seen before.

I think this should work but I did have some followup questions.

I am almost certain that I will need to use a nut extractor and a ton of penetrating fluid. I may or may not use force to try and shock the bolts out of their rusted positions to hopefully unscrew out.

Should I be using a nut extractor? And or is there any other method or tool I could use to hopefully get the cylinder out without too much difficulty.

Do I need to match my brake line exactly? Or can I use anything that is graded for use with brake fluid. (I believe the options are stainless steel and rubber)

Thanks!

holmesnmanny

How about a video demonstration of this short easy process of removing the shoes exactly like it's shown here ? I'm looking forward to seeing you remove the upper spring with no special tools at all ? I'm thinking just bare hands should be fine. I'm always open to learning a thing or too.

Thanks in advance. I'll be waiting.

poorman212

I'm old school and don't have the means to make video, I have to remember to get out my camera when doing things and take pictures along the way. Next time I mess with the rear drums I will try to remember to take more pic's along the way....unless you want to fly out to the east coast, come by the house and take the video while I do the work

Back to the OP: You need to figure out how to get the two bolts out and the line off. Even if you snap the head off the two bolts, fine. Snaking the whole hard line out of the backing plate while still on the wheel cyl might be an issue so if you are replacing the hard line I would go ahead and cut it at the wheel cyl.

Then I will leave this little gem for both of you. If you really look at this set up, the wheel cyl will come off/out without removing the shoes :eek:. Step back and think about it for a minute, the adjuster will hold the top of the shoes "out", once the wheel cyl hard line and bolts are out, compress the wheel cyl -both ends at the same time - and it will slip out

holmesnmanny

Ya, i didn't think so. It's funny in both pictures the upper return spring is still attached. That's the only hard part about the shoes but you act like it's easy but don't even show either removed or the removal itself.

It's one thing to say it's possible to pull the shoes off the wheel cylinder without completely disassembling the shoes, but to act it's a breeze to completely disassemble the shoes without special tools is absurd. You atleast need a good pair of vice grips but with the special tool it really is a breeze.

Finally, yes, for those of us that have done it plenty of times it may be a breeze but for the first timer, it's not so easy.

poorman212

To each their own my friend.

"Special tool" needed - needle nose pliers.....ok the vise grip type needle nose work better for the e-brake cable since it has that spring around it. Flat head screw driver for the hold down pins. Brake spoon for the adjuster wheel............flat head screw driver will work but the brake spoon makes life easier.

Look at the set up in the last pic, unclip the hold down pins, needle nose pliers to the bottom spring, lift the shoes up slightly to clear the hub (might have to spread the bottom of the shoes to help), fold the shoes down from the top, needle nose pliers to pull back the spring around the cable that goes to the "e-brake arm" and guess what......shoes are off and never undid the adjuster or that top spring. Once they are on the ground you can twist/pull the top of the shoes and then the spring/adjuster comes right off. To put it back together, screw in the adjuster and twist/pull the spring back onto the new shoes while still off the car.

"Holmes" sorry this concept is over your head. You know all of the places I post and I would never "make up" a story, don't know why you wish to "attack/come at me". Next time you do the rear shoes, try putting the adjuster and spring onto the shoes while off the car, the concept might finally come to you. Look at it, the "long" arm of the spring, if that shoe was rotated up from the bottom, the long arm of the spring will slip into the shoe, then rotate is back down to normal position setting it to the adjuster (you are using the shoe as your leverage instead of said special tool), slip in the little adjuster arm as you do this (remember this end of the adjuster arm is the "short end" that just slips onto the "screw" wheel), the little spring from the adjuster arm to the bottom of the shoe goes in with needle nose pliers.....but I'd bet you would have told me it is impossible to change a wheel cyl with a broken bleeder without removing the shoes , well I just busted that theory for you, sorry.

You forget I grew up with drum brakes, the Chevelle is four wheel drum brakes so I could do those before I ever saw a "brake caliper" ...and that beast doesn't have a "booster" either, so you get to know drum brakes really well unless you like using both feet on the brake pedal.

I taught you how cooling fans work on 4th and 5th gen Accords (junk edited but I have the original and the PM's - https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...-fans-2989671/), I will try to teach you how to do brake shoes without special tools as well....you're welcome. I've been playing with drum brakes for over 30 years now.

PM me the pictures you want, I have to replace the other wheel cyl next weekend (bleeder broke on both rear on the 89 LXi - that last pic was from this past Saturday) and I will pull the shoes and take pictures for you.

To the OP, sorry about this. I guess the popular belief is you should do things the hard way a few times before you learn how to work smarter.

holmesnmanny

Yet again you say you don't need a special tool for the upper return spring while in the same exact sentence admitting you need a pair of vice grips which is exactly what I stated someone would need. Do you need me to quote you ?

I stated that that tool that costs ten bucks is even better than the same vice grips you admit is needed and you chose to cry about it.

Unlike some people, I don't need to blatantly lie to try to make myself look good. It's one thing to be mistaken. I've been mistaken a number of times, but I don't need to go around lying to try to make someone else here look bad and then get mad when I get caught.

I didn't realize that the fans both worked at the same time on this particular car. Not a big deal, I didn't realize you had that filed away for when I caught you lying. Good to know, 'though. There have been a few times where you were wrong but I never bookmarked them. Clearly I should have, for a rainy day.

Also the u-clip for the ebrake might be the most time consuming part of actually changing shoes, not just pulling them somewhat off to pull the wheel cylinder but you just glossed over it like it's a piece of cake for a first timer.

voidoverload

Okay this might sound stupid. But I was able to get the shoes off. My issue is I don't have the clearance to use my nut extractors. I can't take the backing plate off because there is no way I would **** with the differential. Any ideas?

Edit: okay I feel silly. I don't even think there is a diff in the back because it's a fwd vehicle. Though. I did make success albeit small. I got one of the bolts off of the backing plate. The other one still has very little clearance. None of the tools I have right now can get leverage on it.

voidoverload

I got the two bolts off. I found a way to make it work. Also getting the shoes off of the assembly wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be. That being said I haven't put them back on yet so that may prove to be even harder.

Next step is finding a shop that will fabricate me a brake line as long as it isn't stupid expensive. Will update later.

​

holmesnmanny

if there's a junkyard in the area you can just pull another brake line

poorman212

Never said "needed" needle nose vise grips, said it makes the e-brake cable easier.....never said to use it on the upper spring. Need to read a tad better. Next time you do your shoes, put the upper spring and adjuster onto them before putting them on the backing plate......it will save you plenty of time. It only requires your two hands . Calling me lying, well I'll let that go as it will be my pleasure to school you.

OP- Look at online Honda dealers, a quick search showed that hard line might still be available from them. Example 46361-SM4-A01 was ~$12 online, again you will need to check your specific Accord and compare

poorman212

Don't worry I can quote myself

EDIT: Did you answer the question about changing a wheel cyl without removing the shoes? - No you did not. You can now since you know it is possible - your welcome . Again I would only do this for a broken bleeder, if leaking then the shoes would most likely need to be changed as the brake material would be soaked with brake fluid and never provide the proper performance.

holmesnmanny

sure you did, right here
And I can do each side start to finish in less than 20 minutes, including properly greasing and adjusting. It's a piece of cake with the correct tools.

I use the k.i.s.s. method.