schmooot

I am completely out of ideas here please help me out. I took the time to write it, please take the time to read it.

I am doing a clutch job for a friend/client on a 2000 Accord Special Edition. 2.3L.

Everything went as planned...this was not my first clutch job, it all came apart fine, machined the flywheel, put the new rhinopac clutch in, and put it all back together to see fluid leaking out of the slave cylinder. Bought a "new" one and promptly broke the rubber seal and pin while attempting to relocate the swivel from the old cylinder. After much swearing and troubleshooting over this terrible design idea....and a phone call to Honda to "special order" this $8 seal and a $8 pin. I proceeded to wait 2 days.

When the parts finally arrived I carefully put it all back together and promptly found the master to be leaking as well....another day for that to come in and now the system was all installed and bled, after all this the clutch just would not engage, it wasn't close....I could not push and grind it into gear, and if I started it in gear the wheels just spun.

So I started the troubleshooting process and bled, and bled, and bled, and bled...and so on. I pulled from multiple sources, journeyman mechanics, old school mechanics, college automotive instructors as well as "certified techs from the honda dealership". I adjusted the pedal, I took all the fluid lines apart again (and promptly broke the stupid o-ring again, this time I ordered two more...fast forward 4 more days for the long weekend), found a faulty bleeder screw/slave cylinder and changed that again. Submerged the slave in fluid and bled just in case it was leaking at one of the multiple very sloppy joints (seriously Honda??? Very poor engineering on that one) I tried and tested absolutely everything and completely exhausted my resources and wasted 2 weeks...so the only thing left to do now was pull the clutch back out.

Got the clutch out and compared it to the old one...pressure plate looks the same...measures different depths. throw-out bearing is completely different looking but measures the same in all the critical dimensions. Fork and all the other goodies all appear to be functioning properly, The factory friction disc however is about a 1/4" smaller in diameter than the replacement, and the actual pad sat about an 1/8" higher when compared side by side...and the springs were at different heights. WTF?
Now pulling from my limited knowledge of clutch systems I have never seen one where the friction disc is smaller in diameter than the pressure plate disc....and subsequently the wear on the flywheel. It just shouldn't be at all. Anyways so I went back to the parts store and showed them my findings. We then decided that this couldn't be the proper kit. Maybe the engine had been changed...maybe the transmission is different. But according to the engine stamp and the tag on the trans and their supplier it was all correct. Anyways we ordered a kit in that had the same diameter friction disc....two more days later (are we sensing a pattern here?)

Finally the kit arrives (from a 2.0L BTW) and the friction disc has the right dimensions but of course the rest of the parts are smaller to match. Back to the book, he happens to have a kit in stock from a 93 Prelude (2.2, 2.3) which matches up much closer to the original (except the friction disc is actually the correct size.)

Now I am wondering just what was in this car in the first place and how/why it actually worked the way it sat. Off to Honda I go with 2 clutch kits and the original, this time I talk to an old tech. He looks at it all and says the original factory clutch does have a smaller disc, he also says the one that I put in and pulled out looks entirely wrong. Thanks tips. He also bashed rhinopac...which is to be expected. And then told me the prelude kit looks much closer and I should try that. So he didn't offer much help but they did check my vin and my codes and assured me that all the major bits I had in the car were the ones that came with it.....every little bit counts.

Off to a different parts store to have a look at their premium clutch kit just for comparison, (they said rhinopac is crap and they don't carry it btw). He comes out of the back with the premium kit and lo and behold It has the same box as my rhinopac, it has the same part number and sticker as well, and would you believe an identical clutch to the one I was holding, however the outer shell of the box (the slipcover) has some other brand on it. LOLZ.


Anyways, now I am confident I have the proper kit for the car. But still leery because the honda guy confidently shot down the clutch that I had already installed...and now was planning on reinstalling.

Back to my shop...I removed the flywheel again and sent it back to the machine shop just to be certain and called in 3 or 4 more professionals to advise. Nobody could offer an answer except to meticulously put the clutch back in again and make sure nothing gets overlooked.

So I did...very very carefully, by the book, going over again and again. Just finished this morning and guess what, I have the same issue but this time the clutch almost engages...it is very close but still not quite enough. The slave pushes about a half inch of travel ( which is comparable to a similar car I looked at).

My only nagging concern is this: On all the other hondas I saw in the scrapyard the clutch fork sat right tight up against the slave cylinder...like the boot on the slave was compressed fully. Mine sits much further out...like the slave is already an inch into its travel. I have measured and I'm certain it isn't maxing out....and that is the beauty of a hydraulic system is it adjusts automatically (I figure I can adjust the pivot bolt to fix this...but it worked before with the old clutch so it should now)

So here I sit, week 3 on a simple clutch job, sitting on hundreds of dollars in parts. I just don't know what else to possibly try.

holmesnmanny

How much play is there in the clutch pedal before it starts engaging the clutch ? My guess is you got too much. Any time you replace the MC you have to make sure that it's adjusted properly.

You've replaced the MC before testing the clutch so the push rod isn't in the same position as before your clutch job. It would have changed to whatever you set it at before installing the MC.

You could also have air in the system. The last time I replaced my MC I couldn't get it to engage the clutch until I realized that I need to gently pinch the reservoir hose to get all the air bubbles out before I could properly bleed it. Just pinch it up and down while someone pumps the clutch. The air will go straight up and out of the reservoir. You will see the bubbles. Just leave the cap off you don't need it on until you drive the car. It only serves to prevent fluid from flying out. On top of that, I thought I had it good until ever few days the clutch pedal would stay down. I believe a very tiny bubble was stuck in the system. So I did another complete and lengthy bleed until I was certain nothing was in there. I think it was hiding just behind the MC.

schmooot

I have adjusted the mc pushrod to eliminate all the play. I will try pinching the hose first thing tomorrow to see if there is any more air trapped in there

holmesnmanny

Just to be sure, when you push the clutch it almost immediately engages the fork at the slave ? If this is true, then it can really only be air in the system.

Just to be sure, you should be having someone push the clutch down, you pop the bleeder, close the bleeder, and they pull the clutch pedal back and redo?

schmooot

Yes I get immediate engage of the fork.

As far as bleeding goes I have bled using the method you described as well as the following other ones:
gravity bled,
then actuated the slave manually to force air out the reservoir,
then tried the standard brake method (slowly pump then hold while opening the bleeder),
then tried the honda method which is open the bleeder with hose suspended in fluid and just pump constantly.
Then I tried opening bleeder, push pedal slowly all the way to the floor and hold, push in slave pushrod all the way and hold, close bleeder, then lift pedal back up super slowly.
I also saw another method involving removing the bleeder completely, pushing the slave pushrod all the way in and then replacing the bleeder.
I have attached a hose to the bleeder and applied a vacuum to it to suck out any air (went through two full reservoirs this way with no bubbles in the hose).
I have pressurized the system from the reservoir to push air out the bleeder.
I'm sure there are a couple more things I forgot to mention as well.

I have literally bled the system over and over again at least a dozen times using each method above and a combination of the above methods (this has been going on for over two weeks now). I can't see there being any more air in the system...however I still can't be sure, I did put a clamp on the slave and pushed the pedal to check for brick wall effect but how accurate can that be, I really don't trust this o-ring setup that they have done here....the entire thing is just sloppy and I don't like it

schmooot

I am fabricating a tool to manually actuate the fork right now. That will eliminate the entire hydraulic system from my troubleshooting.

schmooot

Alright the hydraulic system is out of the picture. I have the car up on stands, engine running in gear. I can manually actuate the fork slowly up to an inch of travel and at no point does the clutch engage to stop the wheels from spinning. Methinks something is wrong with that brand new pressure plate, and I will probably have to pull the thing back out and try another one. Thoughts?

holmesnmanny

I'm thinking go with a name brand clutch kit and get a name brand flywheel. I'm using a prelude h22a1 clutch kit and flywheel with my accord tranmission so my advice would be to get a clutch kit for the engine which it appears you have so just stay with it but get a name brand. I'm using an exedy clutch kit and I've heard nothing but good things with them. However, now that I think of it, perhaps there's something wrong with either the MC or Slave ? Maybe one of them somehow doesn't travel far enough. I just dunno. Just throwing ideas out there.

schmooot

Comparing the rhinopac pressure plate to the original it is 5mm smaller...bolt up something like that to this flywheel and all of a sudden the friction disc can't travel because it is samwiched together so tight. I grabbed a napa one and it appears to be the same dimensions.

OEM


Rhinopac


Here is a pic showing all three, OEM on left, rhino in the middle and a new napa one on the right. And the splines are holding the middle one off the bench a bit so it is even lower. When mated to the flywheel the friction disc actually sits inside...deeper than the mounting bolts.



I don't know for sure because I haven't put it back together yet but this makes perfect sense to me...rhinopac=crap


On a side note...After the third clutch pull I got my time down to 2.5hrs

ej7attack

is your throw-out bearing connected to the fork? there has got to be something your not doing right. do you have a manual to go by to make sure your putting components in at the right order and the right way?
even with a sloppy, spongy clutch pedal that still needed bled engaged for me. barely, but I did..ive installed aftermarket and oem on f motors numerous times.
I also learned to not open a line unless something else regarding had to be replaced.

make sure your slave cylinder and master cylinder don't have internal leaks. peel the rubber boot away. brake fluid in there? replace.
you also said even with the hydraulic system deleted your not getting nothing. that tells me something mechanically is wrong.
something is not in place correctly.

my last one I bought a stage one egay xtd clutch. worked awesome and grabbed right now.
go oem. also every time you open a line you introduce air. if everything is mechanically in correctly, bleed it. it may take awhile, a long while.

of course you could have a bent fork as well.

schmooot

It works now with the napa clutch. Had to be the thickness difference in the pressure plate. No room for the disc to float.

ej7attack

good info

schmooot

Not happy about the labour I have to eat now...all due to poor design.

Dominic@CCI

the 'thickness' difference you are measuring is of no consequence. A proper measurement would be to bolt all assemblies to the flywheel one by one and take a measurement of diaphragm finger tip to the friction surface on the flywheel (note this can very by more then .25" from manufacture to manufacture as well as from worn to new)

schmooot

Interesting. That would make sense if the flywheel was flat. What about the friction surface of the flywheel actually being inset (deeper) than the mounting points? Would that not make the depth of the pp more critical?