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My 1995 Accord Ex, 4-cyl has rusted, leaking brake lines, and would like some advice. I have spend hours pouring over threads/posts, and understand the basics of creating the line, but a lot of posts are unanswered, are incomplete, provide or shortcuts/temp. fixes or mods; and some have pictures replaced by photobucket ads....
Anyhow, first, what I "know" or hope to confirm:
1) I intend to use 3/16 Ni-copp line, since it is corrosion resistant and malleable. (Some threads say 6mm is the correct size, but 3/16" is fine, just make sure fittings have right size thread).
2) The flare is a standard double flare, according to what I've read... please confirm or correct if wrong.
3) The fittings are m10 x 1.0 according to various threads.... and maybe occasionally an outlier.
4) To replace the lines requires "dropping the fuel tank."
5) Tools I need are tubing bender for 3/16" line, double-flaring tool (Eastwood makes one for JUST 3/16" line that can flare on or off the vehicle for $38; or a more expensive turret one for around $200 that will flare various sizes of line that gets mounted in a vise. I'm just putting it here in case others read the thread and want to know. I want to stay away from cheap flaring tool, even though you can get away with cheaper if using malleable Ni-copp vs harder steel or even harder stainless.)
Where I get hung-up:
1) Some people say just cut the lines and take them to the parts store to match fittings... How do you prevent the master cylinder from draining once you remove the line? Do you have to plug both the top and the bottom ends when removing the line, or just up under the hood? Do you use rubber plugs, fitted plugs?
2) Is there any risk of damage to the master cylinder if it does run dry, aside from needed to be bench bled? Does it matter? (I read seals can be damaged, but I will be replacing all brake fluid.) Is there a special tool for keeping it filled like there is for the radiator?
3) Does dropping the fuel tank mean merely lowering it, or actually removing it? Will I have to disconnect fuel lines? Remove a half tank of fuel? Depressurize the lines?
4) Is it very difficult to do if I can only put the car on jackstands? (I don't have a lift.)
5) Is there a special order to replacing brake lines (as there is with bleeding brakes)?
5) Is replacing fuel lines (given that they are rusty but not leaking) a can of worms? (Concern about causing new problems like damaging fuel pump, injectors, etc.) I can't find info on what size lines or fittings for fuel lines... Does anyone know?
Are there any other considerations?
My car is subject to PA state inspection, so I want to make sure that what I do is legit.
I can probably help you out here - I just installed new rear brake and fuel lines in my 1996 Accord LX wagon this summer. First off, kudos on your choice of Nicopp. I didnt research enough and just purchased some OEM replacement lines at about $110 a pop each side. IMO you dont need an expensive flare nut set unless you plan on doing a lot of brake line replacements. You are right, you need double flares for Honda. GM/ domestics use the ISO/bubble flare. No, you wont need to necessarily drop your gas tank. The brake line kind of snakes up behind it, and there is a clamp that I couldnt get to the 10MM unless I removed the two tank strap nuts and lowered it an inch or two to get access. I wanted to route my new lines in the exact factory locations so I did lower it slightly, it helped because its tight up there. You can do a brakeline replacement without going through that though..I was under a car in the junkyard last weekend and could see the guy didnt even remove the rusted line, just ran a new one that came up along on the back of the rear subframe. Depends on how much time and effort you want to go through I guess. It was kind of a pain to remove all the brake and fuel lines and replace them all to be honest but I plan on keeping the car for a long time. You wont need a lift, I did all it on jack stands but it is kind of tight, get it up as high as you can. You shouldnt need to worry much about the master cylinder because you will be disconnecting the rear lines from the proportioning valve, not the MC. But if your MC looks the least bit old, for $30 or so this would be a good time to replace it. You can then bench bleed it, its pretty easy. If you dont want to bother changing it then dont worry about it, you wont damage it by letting the fluid out, when you just bleed the brakes it should be fine. No special order to replacing the lines, yank the old ones off with a 10mm flare nut wrench on the fittings, tear em out and create new ones to thse lengths and just replace em. For fuel lines, I actually used nylon fuel line and fuel injector clamps. It was kind of a pain, you might want to go Nicopp on the fuel lines too (If I were to do it over, thats what I would use.Dont worry about your fuel pump or injectors. When you unscrew the fitting at the fuel pump (you will need a crowsfoot and long extension) it will release all the pressure. The main fuel line (fatter one is 3/8" ID, the two smaller ones, (vent and return) are 5/16" ID. You will need about 10Ft for the main, and 20 ft for the two 10ft vent and reurn lines. Dont mix them up. I routed the return to the carbon cannister by accident and filled it up with raw fuel lol.
I have an 02 Accord. 2 years ago the rear brake lines rusted out, but it was just
under the center part of the car where the lines pass through the plastic cover.
The lines were not rusted anywhere else. I cut out the rusted sections and replaced
them with nicopp and flared union fittings. I used a tool similar to the Eastwood on-car
flaring tool. No more leaks.
I noticed the fuel lines had surface rust. I removed what rust I could and sprayed on
Fluid Film to protect the lines.
For fuel lines, I actually used nylon fuel line and fuel injector clamps. It was kind of a pain, you might want to go Nicopp on the fuel lines too (If I were to do it over, thats what I would use.Dont worry about your fuel pump or injectors. When you unscrew the fitting at the fuel pump (you will need a crowsfoot and long extension) it will release all the pressure. The main fuel line (fatter one is 3/8" ID, the two smaller ones, (vent and return) are 5/16" ID. You will need about 10Ft for the main, and 20 ft for the two 10ft vent and reurn lines. Dont mix them up. I routed the return to the carbon cannister by accident and filled it up with raw fuel lol.
Thank you for the detailed information, especially on the caveat of mixing up the lines--very good to know! I didn't even know you could use ni-copp for fuel lines--thought I read you couldn't--yet sure enough I just saw that Advance Auto sells Ni-Copp pre-cut lines with fittings for fuel lines as well. I appreciate the information on line sizes, especially since rusted lines appear larger than they are in reality. Do you happen to know the fitting sizes for the fuel lines? Do these also use the same double flare?
I have an 02 Accord. 2 years ago the rear brake lines rusted out, but it was just
under the center part of the car where the lines pass through the plastic cover.
The lines were not rusted anywhere else. I cut out the rusted sections and replaced
them with nicopp and flared union fittings. I used a tool similar to the Eastwood on-car
flaring tool
I think that is the issue with mine, too. I left the day for days in the garage and no leaks appeared on the floor and the visible lines were dry, but probably that cover holds moisture. I think I'm just going to replace the whole line, though, since I live in the absolute rust belt...near Lake Erie.
Just for reference, you can legitimately replace sections of pipe with new pipe segments and fittings as long as they are flared, not compression, right? And still pass inspection?
Just for reference, you can legitimately replace sections of pipe with new pipe segments and fittings as long as they are flared, not compression, right? And still pass inspection?
It varies by state.
Compression fittings are legal on brake lines in some states, eg TX and NC. But not in NY or PA, have to use flared fittings there.
Tools: I can't believe the reviews of flaring kits and tube benders. The ones carried in store seem to have poor reviews. If I order from Amazon today, I can get to work Tuesday evening, but I want to be sure I get quality items because if they don't work out, then I'm stuck.
Potential problems: The multi-size benders generally do 1/4", 3/16", 5/16" and 3/8" with the caveat that 1/4" and 3/16" share a slot. Sometimes this means that 3/16" slips according to reviews.
Flaring kit: a decent inline flaring kit runs about $200 for multi-sizes. Also, Eastwood sells a vise mounted (not inline) multi-size flaring kit for $180. The loaner flaring tool from Advance Auto retails for $30 and has crappy reviews.
Although the use of Nicopp suggests I can use 'cheaper' tools since the bends and flaring is easier, I also don't want to waste money buying crappy tools and ruin the expensive tubing, especially having read of people kinking the nicopp. I also don't want to have to spend $500 on tools needlessly, for a one-time job. What do you all get by with? Also, do you need a tubing straightener for nicopp coils?
If you have better suggestions without breaking the bank, I'd love to hear them; otherwise, I'm putting through the order when I get home and will hope for the best!
I tried using a bar/clamp flaring tool and returned it. I found the inline, single size
tool much easier to use, and it works on the car as well.
I found it very difficult to straighten nicopp tubing. I rolled it on a flat surface.
If I worked with it on a regular basis I would want to use a roller tool to straighten it.
You can bend nicopp around a properly sized socket.
Suggest you remove the plastic cover and take a look at the lines. If they are leaking only
on the straight sections, just cut and replace those, makes the job much easier.
Thanks bw77! I will likely be able to put the car on stands tonight--I had to rearrange my whole garage so that I could pull the whole car in. Maybe once I look at it, I'll change my mind...
I'm not near my car right now, but I'm looking at a blow up of the parts. From the picture, it looks like only the fuel feed (#7) needs to have fittings attached; whereas the vent (#9) and return (#11) do not.
Is there anything else I'll need to buy, fitting-wise besides the M10 x 1.0 and whatever size goes to the fuel feed? Do you know what size goes on the fuel feed?
The feed is in red, return in blue and vent in green. For anyone changing just brake lines, the brackets and cage holding them underneath the chassis are shown in the fuel line parts diagram, not the brake line diagram.
Is there anything else I'll need to buy, fitting-wise besides the M10 x 1.0 and whatever size goes to the fuel feed? Do you know what size goes on the fuel feed?
No. I repaired the brake lines, not the fuel lines.
Fair enough. My supplies will be here Thursday. I bought Nicopp in 3/16, 5/16 and 3/8 sizes and will just hold off buying fittings until then. I'll update when I get started. Thanks for your help!
I can't work on my car every day like some of you, so I've had the opportunity to let the bolts on my caliper brackets soak for days trying four different penetrants (Deep Creep, Liquid Wrench, CRC freeze off, Fluid Film) in conjunction with using a 1/2" breaker bar with impact socket and 2 foot long pipe on the end of that, and I could only break free one of the four rear caliper bracket bolts. I've read ad nauseum about how to break these bolts free, and that using a torch (handheld propane) probably won't work because of the difficulty in getting the bolt stem hot enough. If anyone has found this works, I'd love to hear it! At least I got the calipers themselves off the brackets. None of the pins were seized where they slide. One had stuck threads, so I sawed through the pin with a hacksaw.
I wanted to replace the calipers, rotors and brake pads prior to inspection Tuesday (along with the brake lines, of course!)--caliper pistons are seized--but for now, I'm going to just for now attach the new calipers to the old brackets and ask the shop to break free those old bracket bolts and concentrate on the brake lines, put some cheap brake pads in, and save the better ones for the new rotors, which I can't put in until the caliper brackets can be removed. Here's hoping I can replace brake lines in a day!
SOME PROGRESS
As for the fuel lines, yeah, I think I should replace them, too. I can't figure out what I'm looking at under the car. I'm glad to have seen one of the fuel hoses labeled "return." There is a plastic flap around where hoses and such attach near/to the gas tank. It's held on by 2 bolts and a couple of push pin connectors. I couldn't remove the push pin connectors with a screwdriver, so I picked up a tool from Harbor Freight last night, so I'm about to go out and get that removed. Pipes look pretty bad behind that flap. I'll post pictures later, to hopefully help someone else out as I fake my way through this mess. I also removed screws to the brackets holding on the plastic cage that covers the lines under the car. I'm hoping to figure out a good way to remove that cage without breaking it. I'll post about that, too, if I figure it out. Looking as posts in this forum, it looks like breaking it is pretty common. Yeah, it's slow going for me, but I've finally got a full day to work!
Well, I drained the gas tank, removed the plastic shroud covering the lines near the gas tank and got a good in daytime lighting. It's even worse than I thought. I think some of the specialty fuel lines to the tank might need to be replaced as well. I can't really get away with fixing brake lines now and fuel lines later--and the fuel lines in particular--not sure that it's even possible to replace segments. I'm not sure I'm going to get this job done this week, let alone by Tuesday and am a little set back. Also, I saw oil around the oil pan gasket.
I am in the same process as you and it is a time consuming pain. I've been working on it for a couple months with little time to actually get them replaced.
I went to Advanced Auto and bought the 72" straight sections of NiCopp 3/16" brake lines that are already flared with SAE fittings. Note that the domestic version (SAE fittings) were $10 cheaper per section so that's what I bought as well as the correct fittings. So, all of my couplers and fittings are standard except for the ones that go to my stainless steel brake lines that replaced the rubber hoses.
For the flaring tool, I used Napas SER 161A that has worked really well. You can also order it online under the OEM brand for like $12. Easy to use and works well. On a side note, be prepared to spend a ton of money if you broke any of the clips or if your brackets are corroded like mine. I'm only ordering the cheap parts and ill make the old ones work for things like the plastic guards which are ridiculously overpriced.
19Accord97 Yeah, I totally feel your pain. My car has been mostly down for the better part of 3 weeks, and feels like it's going to be a while. Thank you for the info... no doubt I'll be needing something from the dealership...though right now, unfortunately, brake lines look like a breeze compared to the fuel line problems I uncovered. Good luck with your brake line job! It's definitely no glamour job! :D
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I was wondering, if anyone knows the purpose of the metal sheath around the factory lines. Is that to just slow down rusting, or to prevent abrasion to the line? If the latter, I'd be curious to know if there's a similar way to protect the Nicopp lines. Thanks!
Bah, sorry.
The format of the parts/listing did not transfer to this.
My fuel lines are in the same condition as my brake lines but hopefully they will last a bit longer.
The coating is simply for rust protections. However, the problem is that the plastic retaining clips/guides for the brake and fuel lines retain moisture and this is generally where the rotting begins. It is especially true for people like me whose vehicles come into contact with road salt for 5 months out of the year. That being said, I wouldn't worry about the NiCopp lines as they will last significantly longer than the OEM lines did. If you are truly worried, either clear coat them with spray paint, use an undercoating products, or something like Fluid Film.
^^I copied the diagrams for the fuel tank, fuel lines and brake lines. So the diagram #'s should just correspond to that, right?
The corrosion resistance is the main reason for going with Nicopp followed by ease of forming, so I'm not worried about that. Road salt--you near the Great Lakes, too? My car was a Florida car brought up north 3 years before I bought it, and I've had it for 3 years. In that time, those lines are wasted.
not a honda civic but I found it very useful since I am doing the same process in my Honda Civic DX d16y7 coupe mt, and searches usually come up everything but what you want, between google, 5 hours and many bad pages this one finally showed and I actually read it instead of blowin it off due to acura, thanks though more research is necessary for me
peace
Can you believe--I am finally getting around to doing this job after nearly 2 years. I ended up making a huge project out of it, as rusty lines were just the tip of the iceberg. I struggled with removing the gas tank straps, and finally did that last year since winter came fast the year prior. Then I saw all sorts of rusty components, various brackets, speciality lines & hoses on the gas tank, a heavily rusted filler tube--decided to go ahead and buy a new gas tank as well. I formed the ni-copp brake and fuel lines last year on a hot 88 degree day in October; went to the paint store to get supplies to touch up the areas hidden by the gas tank, and the temperature dropped. We never got another warm up, and not until late May of this year did I start thinking about it again... ordered various other parts (because I've reached a point beyond just fixing it to run for a few months) and went back to work last week!
Truth is, on an old car, you never know what you will find, but to me, it's always a great learning experience. I've got another vehicle to get around in, so at least I haven't had that pressure.
Good luck with your project. I hear you on sometimes finding it difficult to find quality material in searches--yet it's still a lot better than 20 years ago for laypeople to learn these kinds of skills. I prefer forums like this and youtube, though some youtube videos are lessons in what not to do, while others can reveal struggles that some cleaner, more informative videos don't.
A 1994 cherry red civic hatchback was the first and only car I ever bought new, and the insurance company totaled it out against my will when someone rear ended it. I sure do miss that car!
well many days later and I finally decided to cut lines, replacing the evap with rubber and the main fuel with stainless as the so called "easy to remove" hard lines according to the many repeated videos on youtube, I notice how they never explain or show how you actually slide such a bent tube through the approximate 10cm hole the originals fit through between the subframe and the engine/steering/whatever it all is that keeps the wheels on, since im not removing the engine and flexible lines will pass inspection-since quite a few of the bolts are rustwelded onto the subframe... definitely a learning experience, I believe that a 'real mechanic' would have taken one look at this and went junkyard. still have to replace about 10k worth of parts, going to redo the suspension, and all the control arms, as to suspension though... the car is really rolly, take a 25 mph turn at 35-40 and it feels like its going to flip and is extra bouncy, are there frame supports that I can purchase and install or do I have to weld studs and manufacture my own supports? first however the entire suspension will be replaced then driven hoping that it is bad struts/springs/control/bushings etc. suggestions are always welcome and appreciated... rear bumper support factory crap exhaust who the hell thought this was a good idea
Kirk, you are right, even trying to coax lines out is a major pain, which is part of the reason I'm using Ni-copp for fuel and brakes. You should consider starting a thread dedicated to the progress you make on your car. People often love to see rebuilds and may offer you more tips. I think a real mechanic has all sorts of tools, lifts and so on to make jobs like this a lot less challenging--takes a car I junked for $300, repairs it (hopefully) and puts it on the lot two weeks later for $1800. For the rest of us, it's a time consuming balance of figuring out what's doable or not, when it's doable and so on. I couldn't afford all the things I needed (rather, wanted... sometimes when you disassemble things and see potential problems, You'd rather take care of it rather than have to disassemble it all again down the road) to do with my car last year, and I add to my tool collection little by little buying some used and some new. When you commit to a long term project (rather than needing your car yesterday), you can be more patient to find used parts at the wreckers or just as you can afford it. BTW...I use Honda eStore to look at parts diagrams and look up parts numbers and especially part names. I did not replace my own struts, but did do upper control arms, ball joints, wheel bearings, sway bar links, tie rods, boot covers, front calipers, rotors and brake pads I think... and this was a weekend job--spent more time waiting for parts to arrive.
^^I copied the diagrams for the fuel tank, fuel lines and brake lines. So the diagram #'s should just correspond to that, right?
The corrosion resistance is the main reason for going with Nicopp followed by ease of forming, so I'm not worried about that. Road salt--you near the Great Lakes, too? My car was a Florida car brought up north 3 years before I bought it, and I've had it for 3 years. In that time, those lines are wasted.
Illinois.
Haha glad the brake lines are done and this helped someone else. So far mine are holding up ok by im still not super confident. I think I need new calipers and I'd like to convert the rear drums to disc.
this is the finished result as the new ones i wanted to buy from anywhere didnt exist that i am aware of and the complete set from honda is around 400 bux so i reused the front, the back was missing, i replaced the bolt on hold downs and replaced the honda clips which I modified due to they don't fit aftermarket lines I purchased, I don't know how deep in you are going or how bad your hard lines are. I replaced all 5 since I was down there anyway I think the fuel line was $130 from valex racing. I purchased regular fuel tube for the evap line 1/2 inch is a tad too small to fit over the plastic tubes I cut on the line due to the connectors which only connect to the honda hard line. The vehicle is currently driving and passed pa state inspection. I worked on the principle "this sucks and I don't ever want to do it again" so if you can reuse the parts its fine, but if its going to break in 3 months and you have to do it all over again I didn't want to.
09-08-2017, 07:15 AM
Replacing hard brake lines, maybe fuel lines
Re: Replacing hard brake lines, maybe fuel lines
