2.0Si

Thanks again. I haven't started yet as it's not my daily driver and I'm not in a big hurry. I'm in the process of sorting through all the required parts and tools (thanks to your excellent guide), and I'm extremely grateful you took the time and effort to put it together. It's exceptionally generous and kind of you to do so! I've also ordered a Honda factory service manual and I'm waiting for it to arrive. Hopefully that plus your guide will be enough to get me through the job.

I haven't read through all 24 pages of this thread yet but I do have a few questions off the top of my head. One major (initial) issue is parts selection. You can't go wrong with OEM Honda parts of course but there's a considerable price premium involved with doing so, often 3X to 4X the cost of quality aftermarket parts. I just have a hard time justifying that exorbitant markup in my mind. While I realize you shouldn't "cheap out" on a critical engine component like the timing belt, I can't see how a genuine Honda OEM belt is *THAT* much better than say, a Gates or Goodyear belt, and certainly not why it should cost 3-4X as much. I've also read several times that Gates is the OEM supplier for Honda belts. Do you have any opinions on this issue?

I'm definitely planning to replace the water pump and probably the tensioners, but I'm still kinda iffy about the seals. I've seen several people advise not to replace the seals if they aren't leaking, and it sounds like you need some additional special tools to replace them. I'm leaning towards replacing them but I'm still mulling over that issue.

As a brief rant, it never ceases to infuriate me why manufacturers continue to use timing belts instead of chains or gears for such a critical engine component, and how they've hoodwinked the public into accepting such an expensive complex maintenance item. Back in the mid 80's, Honda had a rash of timing belt failures and instead of doing a recall as they should've, they managed to make it a "maintenance item" as their corrective action. Consumer Reports had a long report/expose on that topic back then. Of course all the other manufacturers joined in and now we all accept timing belt replacement as a required maintenance item. I had a Honda factory service manual for my 1985 Prelude Si and NOWHERE in the maintenance schedule does it say to replace the timing belt. That was added later after the rash of timing belt failures I just cited.

Okay, getting off my soapbox... Thank you again for all your help!

Lost Again

Might not be the place for a debate. Me, a Gates belt and call it a day.

TouringAccord

Honestly, I don't really have an opinion on it. I haven't seen anything that can either prove or disprove the claim that Gates is the OEM supplier for Honda timing belts. Gates is a good brand though.

I'd say definitely replace the seals. Just because they aren't leaking now doesn't mean they won't start leaking within the next 90k miles or 7 years when your timing belt is due again. I didn't really use any special tools and was able to replace the seals. The special tool that was posted within the last couple of pages might make the job a little easier but it's up to you. Either way, I would still replace those seals. You don't want to do this job again just because a seal started leaking.

2.0Si

Actually I was referring to the general issue of aftermarket vs. Honda OEM parts, and not whether Gates is the OEM supplier for Honda belts. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

Speaking of which, I didn't mention that I did have a timing belt failure on my Prelude Si a long time ago, so I'm very sensitized to this particular topic. It happened to the first replacement timing belt which I'm pretty sure was a Gates after around 70K miles or so. I had the original OEM timing belt replaced at 110K miles and it was still perfect, with no cracks or other wear issues whatsoever, so I was planning to change the second belt at around 90K miles or so but it never made it. Thankfully my engine didn't suffer any damage as a result of the belt breakage. My personal belief is that the suppliers cut back the quality of their timing belts after Honda implemented the maintenance requirement to change them every 60K miles which did not previously exist as I stated earlier.

Yeah, I'm probably going to replace the seals. I also read about some issue involving a new retainer for one of the seals (some TSB recommended procedure) that I'll need to check into.

I'm sure I'll be back in touch if I run into any issues while doing the job. Thanks again for all your help!

TouringAccord

well, for some things I think it's fine as long as you use a quality aftermarket brand/part. For others I'd probably stick with OEM parts. Just depends on what I'm working on. For example, me personally, I'd probably stick with an OEM timing belt if I were to do one again.

yep, the front balance shaft seal was known to pop out and leak lots of oil very fast resulting in possible engine damage. If you look at Step 31 the yellow arrow points to the retainer that keeps the seal from popping out.

no problem

double,d

I think 2.0Si is working on an F23A1. Does that front balance shaft seal need the seal retainer too. Just wondering because TouringAccord wrote all of this about the F22B1

TouringAccord

ah, sorry, wasn't thinking about what year Accord 2.0Si was working on. And to answer the question here are two TSB's that list the cars affected, basically the 94-97 4cyl Accord 94-95 Prelude and 94-95 Odyssey.

http://downloads.hondatech.info/Auto...n/x00-073e.pdf

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/at...6&d=1197834002

These two TSB's show both of the different balance shaft seals that you may see on your car.

2.0Si

Yes, I'll be working on a F23A1 engine. I'm still kinda confused about the balance shaft seal retainer issue. While as you said, the TSBs cover 1994-1997 Accord 4-cylinder engines, the issue apparently still affects my 1999 F23A1 engine as Honda did not start installing the retainers on post-1997 engines from what I can gather via web research. Is this true? It's also confusing whether these new retainers are included in replacement seal kits or if you have to purchase them separately.

glimrmn

First off, many thanks to Touring Accord for this post and awesome procedure. I used it last fall when i bought my son a 96 accord f22b2 for his birthday and it made it much easier to follow along than just the chilton manual. Originally just went in there to change some seals as there was a pretty good leak coming from the timing cover area, but since the car was used, wasn't sure how long it had been since the last one was done so I figured "while i was in there..." etc. etc. The front balance shaft seal looked good so only I replaced the cam and rear balance shaft seals. I couldn't get the crank (timing) gear off to change that seal, but I developed a leak again over the last few months so i decided to change the other two this time around.
I'm using this procedure for reference (thanks again) and will try a two-jaw puller to get the gear off, but i have a question if anyone has some input: the timing and balance belts (on for about 8K miles) got some oil on them from one of those leaks; will cleaning them up and re-using them be ok for the remaining time interval til they need changed again? Thanks for any help.

--JV

Lost Again

If they have oil on them and you are there.....better to replace them than take the chance.....just me.

TouringAccord

I would probably call Honda to get a straight answer as to whether the F23A1 is affect by the oil seal issue or not.

Also, the retainer isn't sold in a kit with the oil seal from Honda at least, but there may be individuals who have put kits together that do include the retainer and seals.

TouringAccord

Thank you and you're welcome. I'm glad this guide helped you.

uh, it's hard to say if they will be fine or not, don't know how saturated they became with oil and for how long. In all honesty I would probably replace them to be safe. This is why many people recommend changing everything at one time, to prevent sooner than needed maintenance and having to go through this lengthy procedure again.

glimrmn

Thanks for the inputs guys. I put it all back together today and did a tune up along with the lower plug seals on the rocker assembly and the valve adjustment. Started up fine and then got a CEL for P0135 O2 sensor heater failure Couldn't find any wires unplugged during a quick once-over but noticed a crack in the sensor connector housing; maybe i broke it while i was around the distributor cap...but i believe that belongs in another post and is off-topic. I'll ohm it out tomorrow as I'm kinda tired and it's dark. Thanks again for the procedure and the assistance...I'm sure i'll be needing both again in the (hopefully distant) future.

--JV

dderolph

Is this guide available in PDF?

double,d

Yes. See post #585 in this thread.

361 accord

touring accord, i have some pics and maybe a video of how to get the lower cover off that i'd like to share

pics like wrench/socket combos that work for strange places like the top 2 bolts on the lower cover
might make my own how-to for the accessory belts
and a tip on how to hold down the timing belt tensioner, tie some cord on that arm, form a loop for your wrist to hold it down

MrBill97Accord

TouringAccord,

Great write up, thank you very much!! I just used your directions and the project went great. I was able to rent the Crank pulley tool from Napa and did exactly what you suggested, what a crack when that bolt broke free!!! lol
Never opened the Haynes Manual your PDF was the best as were the pictures!!

TouringAccord

361_accord, I sent you a PM a few months ago or more regarding those lower cover pics, if you are still interested let me know

TouringAccord

You're welcome! Glad to hear it went smooth and that my PDF is being put to use, lol.

JimLish

First, thanks to TouringAccord for the write-up. I just finished getting everything back together, started up the car, and thought I had done everything right. When I start the engine, the idle is fine, but after I rev the engine a bit and then go back to idle, RPM's drop way down so it just about stalls. Any help would be appreciated.

nus_dogg

I assumed it didn't do that before you removed the timing and balancer belts? Did you triple check all the timing mark before reassemble everything back?

JimLish

Thanks for the reply. No, it just started happening after replacing the TB and balancer belt. After work last night, I went home and checked to make sure all my hoses and spark plug wires were reconnected, then re-checked the issue, and it seems to have cleared up. Drove it to work this morning without incident.

Looks like my next job is to put on a new set of spark plug wires (got 187K off the original).

Thanks everyone.

ffmedic42

iTrader: (1)

First off: Awesome write up man. Reading the entire thread, you sure have helped a ton of us out!

I do have a question about the following steps though. I'm sure I am just misreading them or something, so I am just looking for some clarification.

"Step 24
Adjust the timing belt tension. Position piston No.1 at TDC (refer back to Step 12). Then loosen the adjusting nut 2/3-1 turn, rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise 3-TEETH on the CAMSHAFT and retighten the adjusting nut.

Step 25
Make sure the camshaft pulley and crankshaft pulley is still at TDC.
- For the camshaft, refer to Step 12.
- On the crankshaft pulley you’ll see two sets of marks around the outside edge. 1 set has 3 marks (circled in yellow), the other is only 1 mark by itself. The mark by itself should line up with the pointer on the lower cover (shown by red arrows)."


So, by rotating the crankshaft 3 teeth on the cam pulley, they won't both be at TDC any longer. So basically, you are saying to rotate the the 3 teeth counter-clockwise, tighten the nut, then continue to go counter-clockwise (via the crank) until you hit TDC again and confirm that it is the same on the cam pulley marks?

Like I said, I am sure I am just reading into it too much, haha. The reason I ask is that the belt still seemed really loose after doing all this. I am sure I missing something, but it doesn't matter now as I have found out there is a bent valve I have to get fixed anyway, haha.

Anyway, thanks again for the great write-up and any clarification on my question would be greatly appreciated. Have a good one! Thanks in advance!

TouringAccord

Thanks! I'm glad people have gotten and continue to get so much use out of this write-up.

You are correct

If you feel the belt is too loose, double check the new belt to the old one (matching part numbers or number of teeth).

ffmedic42

iTrader: (1)

Copy that! Thanks for the info and quick reply! I'll be doing it all over again when my new head assembly gets here, haha.