elliascool

hey just been seeing alot of vids and reading alot on the hondas people ive seen taking blocks they have and puting a better engine head on it ... like on accords especially people taking they f22b1 or b2 and putting an h22a dohc head on it .... idk if that does much difference or how much you have to change to make it work ... just trying to get a better understanding of why people do it and if its worth it ... can you put a DOHC head on a sohc block ... i mean i dont see why it wouldnt work ... all you would need to change is the timming belt no? and other minor things? and do they get a difference in power? i mean all the honda engines ik are built alot alike and same parts so i see how it works ...

GhostAccord

Yes it can be done, and it has been done. IIRC there might be something in the FAQ, if not there is a hybrid section here on HT that I'm sure has lots of info on these swaps. I think most people call them G22/G23 swaps. There are a lot of different threads discussing the pros and cons of this type of hybrid. IMO just swapping an H22 head onto a stock block F22 is a waste, unless you plan to go with a forced induction system (turbo). However, why bother with spending the money on a DOHC H when the cheaper F22A1-6 head (90-93 PT3) will flow just as good, if not better.

Not quite sure why the powers that be choose to name this hybrid a "G". Honda already has a G series engine....however that's beside the point. if you look up G22/G23 builds you will no doubt find more than enough material to keep you reading for a while.

Depending on what you are looking to do, IMO your better to stick with a complete engine. If you want to go N/A go with the H22 as a base. If you want to go boost use an F22/F23 as a base. If money is a factor boost an F23/F22

Remember to save money for tuning. It is the most important part of any build.

Good luck

elliascool

yea ok just to get clear which is the f22a1? i googled it and it looks identical to the f22b2 sohc ... thats what i have in my 97 accord so im just playing around with ideas and stuff i like to mess around so this would be a cool project ... i want to run boost but not right away thats later so idk the diffrence in power with these g22/g23 swaps idk if your better off with the complete engine ... or if when under boost theres a difference ?

GhostAccord

The F22B2 head (P0B casting) and F22B1 head (P0A casting) do not have the same port configuration or port geometry as the F22A1, A4 or A6 (PT3 casting). They look similar from a quick glance, however they are very different in flow & performance. There are limitations on how much work can be done to the F22B1 & B2 for flow.

If you are doing a low boost build on a daily driver the F22B2 will work. However, if in the future you start looking for a better flow for intake, the F22B2 or B1 head is shyte compared to the capabilities of the PT3 90-93 Accord F22A1, A4 or A6 heads. In all honesty DOHC VTEC is a waste of time to put on an F22/F23 block if all you are going to do is boost it. A 400whp boosted F series is just as quick as a 400whp Boosted H series.... Maybe a bit cheaper to build in the long run as well. Only one cam and no VTEC components to get in the way.

This is just my 2¢ worth. I'm a bigger fan of all motor and even then I still care less for the DOHC H.

elliascool

ok so i searched the difference in hp from the f22b2 to f22a1/4/6 and a1 is 5hp less than b2(130) and a4 same hp as b2 the a6 says had 140 hp which is 5 hp less than the b1, so i dont get how they are better ? plus u think i should swap in either a a1 a4 a6 on my f22b2 block? im guessing the a6 is the best? most hp cuz there are a bunch of 90-93 accords at the junkyard ...

GhostAccord

The 5 - 10 - 15 crank hp between engines doesn't really mean much when it comes to the potential for a motor and it's parts to make more power. Besides, your looking at boosting so what does the base hp number matter? The F22A1-6 head has more potential....not more power stock..... potential for making power with aftermarket parts and a tune!

the F22A1-6 has a straight threw flow port design.

F22A1-6 head flows like this | | | | from the intake side of the head to the exhaust side.

F22B1 & B2 flow like this / \ / \ from the intake side to the exhaust side. It has curves that somewhat reduce the flow potential.

Here are a few visual comparisons for you. https://honda-tech.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=308

hondamark35

speaking of power potential, i came across a neat equation a while back that helps estimate the power potential of a given engine based on several factors, but focused on total valve area.

puma racing-main page

scroll down near the bottom of the main page, check out the first four articles under "engine tuning:evaluating an engines power potential."

this may explain some of the reason for the "frankenstein" engines guys are building.

elliascool

i see what you mean makes sense , i looked at some specs on the f22a6 and am i wrong when i think thats the best of the a1 a4 a6?
"The F22A6 is the same as the F22A1 except for a slightly more aggressive camshaft, a better flowing cast exhaust manifold, a different more aggressively tuned ECU (PT6), and a different intake manifold that utilizes IAB's and also has a bigger plenum. The F22A6 also has a windage tray in the oil pan, and stiffer valve springs to accommodate the more aggressive camshaft."
so when i get the head of an a6 should i get the headers with it too, oil pan and ecu too? or i can run it with my 97 accord ecu?

GhostAccord

You will need to use the F22A* exhaust manifold and intake manifold. No need for the oil pan as they are identical. If you wanted to add a windage tray they are a separate part from the oil pan. If all you are doing is the head swap you can run it with the 97 ECU. However, if you get into adding more aftermarket parts, such as maybe a cam, header, manifold etc etc. You will need a tunable engine management system. Something like a chipped OBD1 ECU, or a standalone EMS. The stand alone EMS computers like AEM and Motech are a bit overkill for basic bolt-ons, not to mention $$$$$

What you decide to use for an intake manifold may also determine what ECU you require. If you use one that has the IABs. Ether the F22A6 IM or an F22A6 bottom with an H23A1 upper & it's larger throttle body. You should use an ECU that has IAB support. There are cheaper mechanical alternatives to have the IABs actuated. For Simply hook a vacuum hose directly to the diaphragm will activate them. However it's not tuned to optimize the use of the shorter runners.

As you can see it's not as simple as what do I use and how do I put it together. There are a lot of variables to think about.

There are some well known combinations already working out there though.

• F22A/B block
• F22A1-6 head (PT3)
• F22A6 lower IM
• H23A1 Upper IM & throttle body
• H23A1 ECU (If you want to stay OBD2 the 96 Prelude Si P14 will get you rolling or a chipped and tuned OBD1 ECU (92-95 Civic/Integra ECU) should get you running properly)

As soon as you start changing or adding parts you could do with a tunable ECU. The stock ECU that is closest will get you running but it will not give you the best overall outcome.

cyotani

Hey ghost. so Im guessing the reason for this is the H23 has a larger throttle body ID and mates up perfectly with the f22A IM? If thats the case that's good to know. talk about taking bits and pieces from every single Honda for the best results.

hondamark35

yeah, larger TB bore, larger volume plenum. then the A6 runners are supposed to be slightly longer (better low-mid torque).

once you learn enough about the range of honda engines and what could theoretically be used together, you can't help but try out some of the combinations honda never considered profitable.

my current project (on hold):
-F23A1 bottom end
-K20A3 pistons
-H23 intake manifold
-F22A4 cylinder head
-D16 Distributor
-D16 transaxle

i'll probably end up using a B-series throttle body F22A waterpipe and thermostat housing.. fun

cyotani

Now that is a frankenstein build... why the D series distributer?

hondamark35

make's it easier to use the factory Civic harness (which better suits my methods). and i have one already...

cyotani

Got it. for some reason I was assuming this was going into an accord. sounds like a fun build tho.

joe94honda

I recently bought an 94 Accord with the G22 Swap it needs alot of work but I am already realizing the potential, First things first do your homework being brought down by cheap mistake waste too much time and money do it right the first time or there will be a guy like me out there buying up your ride cheaply and spending a year or so putting it back together. I havent fully felt the power of my motor as I am not driving it hard since I am still fixing cr@p that is messed up but she runs out good, Future is probably large injectors and a healthy dose of nitrous, Plusses to this swap versus full H22 if I blow the block they are cheaper to replace but Hopefully with a good tune I shouldnt have to. I just love it mainly because so many people out there says it cant be done and I drive mine daily.

GhostAccord

Who's saying that? It's been done many times. When done properly they can be just as reliable as a stock engine. Thing is most people just haphazardly slap the H head on and think they are going to get 180whp. Not going to happen. You will probably see less hp than a stock F22 doing that. You will ether need to add compression or boost it in order to get the benefits out of the swap!

Lil Tones

That's almost my build exactly. I'm using Wiseco K20 pistons and a H22 plenum double stacked on a6 runners. I have a cam and Bisi valvetrain too.

cyotani

anyone know what the compression will be of the k20 pistons in the f22 block with an h22 head?

elliascool

yea i heard the f22 has like perfect compression and better for boost later on , but anyways ghost so your saying that if i slap on a h22a1 head on my f22b2 block and run like 10psi of boost compared to if i slap on the f22a6 head with 10psi of boost it will be the same?

hondamark35

depends on which K20 pistons amoung other things. also the K20 has a 86mm bore like the F23. F22 would have to be bored out to fit them.

anyway, the online comp. calcs give me about 11.5:1 static with the lower domed K20A3 pistons. K20A2 would have been closer to 13:1.

TheMuffinMan

iTrader: (1)

For me personally at least, I would not do a 'Frankenstein' motor swap. You are complicating a process that is relatively simple to do and giving yourself potential headaches down the road due to the uniqueness of the system.

H22A swap and build that up.

GhostAccord

No I said that in order to get more power out of the H head swap over a stock F22 you would ether have to add compression (for an All motor build) or boost it. With a straight H head swap the compression would be lower than a stock F22.

The stock F22 compression is 8.8:1 vs the H head swapped F22 compression @ 8.2-8.4:1 . That .6 compression difference probably not a real big deal in the boosted world. In the N/A world it's always better to have more than 8.8:1. I'm not a big hybrid boost build guru myself. I couldn't tell you the exact hp numbers between these two swaps boosted.

hondamark35

victor.ek4

HT


I'm in the process of building a Boosted F22b2 to fit my EK4 (long story short, my B-series blew and it's just to expensive to find one in my country) and I have some questions:...


-Is the stock B2 manifold too restrictive for boost?
-Is the A6 head a direct swap in the B2 block?
-How much power should I expect from B2 on 10psi on a 52mm/52mm .63/.50AR... Just to know if my current fuel system will handle, or I'll need bigger injectors and Fuel pump (running alcohol here)

Also, for you guys running F-series bottom ends: Any trouble revving 7k+?? Assuming proper valvetrain and that the engine will be still making power (I'm concerned with my transmission, revving to 6200 will make the car topspeed too early and I'll hit fuel cut half the track (trackday car, not drag)




thanks in advance

McChezzy

Hey, So in response to your question of using the f22 bottom end. Im running the h23 head and have hit 7k on it and im already hearing noises. I am in the process of figuring out what the noise is exactly but i think it is from the bottom end. Any imput from some pro's here would be helpful.

Now, i have a qestion of my own. I hope this is the correct thread as i have looked.

95 lude hydrolocked. h23 non-vtec,
90k original miles on a f22a6, sitting in the garage.

H23 head had looked at by my boys over at Arizona Crankshaft and they said the cams looked good. resurfaced a few valves, replaced two. boom done.

Slapped the f22 bottom end in while switching the h23 timing chain gear that is needed onto it.

Runs, its a beast, love it, no leaks ect....Buuuuuuutttt............

Dropped the first oil change, two quarts. Noticed an oil leak at the oil cooler but nothing significant enough to cause worry in my opinion.

To the Question:
I have heard the f22 crank dosent like reving over 5800 rpm without being balanced or somthing. Could this be the origin of the loss of oil due to too much crank pressure and squeezing it past the rings? I dont see the oil cooler dropping that much oil?

As of now i just broke 3300 miles on the build and its been doing great but since i have heard a slight knock i yanked the valve cover off and the cams look a little scratched up.

I do not want to give up on it and if i can figure out where i am getting my problem i am going to fully build it.

Have at it yall