plugger

I've seen the MSD "modified distributor cap" product MSD-82943 which allows for an external coil to a F23A1 distributor. Anyone else have any other solutions if you want to run an external coil? Is it possible to mod a stock cap, for example? Any other products on the market do this?

The reason I ask is that I'm consider ugrading the ignition to a MSD type multi-spark capacitive discharge system.

plugger

No-one's done an internal -> external coil conversion for a F23A1 engine?

TouringAccord

no, you cant really modify the stock cap to do this because you need the terminal on the cap to connect the external coil to.

-remove the stock cap
-remove the stock internal coil
-extend the wires that are connected to the internal coil
-install the external coil
-connect the extended (+ and-) wires to the external coil
-install new cap
-connect external coil to cap

Atreidies

FYI - Factory honda ignition is pretty stout from the factory. You wouldn't need to upgrade unless you were pushing some serious power. Plenty of people boost 15+ psi on stock ignition with no problems. Save your money for something that will give you more hp/$

TouringAccord

^ i agree

plugger

Yeah, I've read this reasoning a few times when I did a search on this forum, but it really misses the point.

Upgrading the ignition is about more complete and efficient combustion. If you think that _any_ ignition system is 100% efficient, factory or otherwise, you are badly mistaken.

I'm running a MSD system on a Porsche at the moment -- it's the second car I've had an MSD system in -- and so I know exactly wht the difference is. It's not about max HP, it's about improving low end torque, overall responsivenes -- and yes, in an older car it will compensate for some of the deficiencies of older fuel/air/ignition parts that make for rougher idling, hesitation, lower gas mileage etc.

So the "you don't need to upgrade unless you are pushing some serious power" comment really indicates a basic misunderstanding of what's going on with ignition system upgrades like these. More complete/efficient combustion, whether through better spark ignition or better fuel atomisation from injectors, etc., is a good thing at all power levels.

If you don't believe me, you would never need to change your spark plugs until one actually stops working completely!


But anyway, the first step to a better ignition system is an external coil set-up. I did read about someone who modified a stock cap by adding a MSD "power tower" fitting to it, but I don't know how reliable that would be in the long term. Obviously, doesn't seem to be a common or popular mod.

Thanks for your comments.

Atreidies

Did you dyno before and after to know for a fact that you had a low-end torque gain?

I know what all of the ads say. I've seen them. Yes, a MSD coil will produce more power than an old, worn-down stock ignition system. As a company, I could take a engine in whatever condition I want, throw my part on as a replacement for a worn part, and post dyno graphs showing my part adding power. But, if you want to spend your money on it, go right ahead.

I still believe my statement of this upgrade not being NEEDED unless big power is being made is still true. A stock ignition, in working order, will do the job fine. If you think you will gain, on a stock internals/non boosted engine, more than a few hp or lb/ft, then you are the one that doesn't grasp the concept.

If you are more concerned about engine response, you have some cheaper options that will be more effective.

Complete/efficient combustion? A second spark in the middle of a cloud of burnt fuel will do nothing but spark. Fuel in a cylinder will only burn when oxygen is present. Unless this magical ignition system injects an oxidizer through the spark plug, it will not burn any more fuel than a stock ignition.

You still think an engine with an MSD system is cleaner burning and pulls more stored energy from the fuel? Then why doesn't every manufacturer install their product, instead of none?

If you were serious about an ignition system, you would be looking into coil-over-plug systems.

Leave that '70's tech, falsified test results, big red pretty stuff to the muscle car guys.

Oh, and this too --


Company information:
MSD Ignition, www.msdignition.com
Jackson, California
United States
Phone: na
msdignition.com

THIS Company has a history of DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT and their quality and service is substandard


This company, retained several Nationwide Unsatisfactory Records with the BBB for Failing to Respond to Consumer Complaints (links below).

Along with having been issued 19 individual Violations from the State Enforcement Agency, 'Consumer Affairs' (BAR).

Specifically, but not limited to, violating several sections of the Business and Professions Code depicted below:

Section 9884.7 (a)(1) False and Misleading Statements
Section 9884.8 Invoice Requirements
Section 988.4.9 (a) Estimate Requirements
Section 3373 Inserting/Withholding info to cause document to be False/Misleading

Copy/pasted from complaintsboard.com

plugger

This proves to me that you really are labouring under a basic misunderstanding of what happens inside a cylinder when a fuel/air mixture is ignited. The spatial and timing characteristics of the combustion of the fuel/air mixture are critically important, which is why a car with a weak coil/dirty spark plugs etc will drive noritably poorly even if firing on all cylinders. You should really read up on this stuff (and not just the advertising literature).

Whatever. I'm not here to make converts. The proof is in the results. Better MPG (at least on the two cars I've done this to), better torque in the low end (you can tell from where you find you _don't_ have to down-shift anymore, for example.)

This is not a monster HP mod. (I mean, get real, if I was looking for monster HP, I wouldn't be bothering with a F23A1 engine anyway.) This is a driveability/efficiency mod.

And it does work. Perhaps not in (your) theory, but it does in (my) practice.

I was going to try out a MSD 6A on the Accord, just moving it over from the Porsche for a trial run, but the show stopper at this stage is a way of getting a coil connected with the capacity to keep up with the demands of the ignition box. Oh well. Maybe too hard.

Atreidies

plugger

I think I can spot the root of your fallacy in your fatally simplistic reasoning -- it's the bit about the amount of chemical potential energy being constant, and therefore _any_ combustion process will yield the same amount of usable enrgy to the engine.

You really need to bone up on your basic thermodynamics man -- how much of that chemical potential energy ends up as HP at the wheels? You really think 100%? If not, (and here's some food for thought for you) perhaps there are different methods of converting _some_ of that energy in the air/fuel mixture to usable work, and perhaps not all are equally efficient.

Your arrogance to knowledge ratio is astonishingly high. Do you always have such strong opinions about subjects about which you obviously have so little understanding?

Atreidies

No, I am willing to accept my limitations, and I recognize when I make a mistake. What you don't grasp, and never will, is that some people can read a text book and regurgitate the statements made in that book, while others read it and UNDERSTAND it.

You obviously feel like you are intelligent and educated. Which you may be. But you have no real grasp on what happens in this physical world. You are the one who is arrogant. To a fault. An unwillingness to accept that you don't know it all and that you still have something to learn is the definition of ignorance. You see the facts in front of you, but for some reason are unable to recognize them. That's fine, enjoy your bliss.

hondamark35

come one guys, lets keep the topic on cars and cut out the pissing contest to see who can sling the most big words together and attack one another's character..

to the OP: i do have another suggestion to allow use of a wide range of better-than-stock ignition systems.. the 90-93 F22A cylinder heads bolt up to the F23 bottom end (and have larger ports ). i don't think the distributor interchanges between the two heads which is why you would need the whole assembly. some years of the F22A came factory with an external coil. upgraded components are available in the aftermarket for the F22A.

a complete (head, manifolds, distributor) F22A head swap would have you set up for anything from coil upgrades to individual coils with a stand-alone controller.

it's true what they say though, honda used a very good set up from the factory. you mentioned great results from installing some MSD components on your porcshe- what do guys say about the factory porcshe ignition? could you say with certainty that it is similar enough to the honda system to validate your comparison? honest question. i don't know much about the porcshes.

i'd say if you really believe what you say, you'll be able to figure out a way to get these parts on that car and make them work. i say do it! and don't forget to get some hard numbers to bring back and prove your point once and for all.

WiCkeDuDe

I did the external coil swap on my F23A1 and it works great. I also added the MSD SCI ignition system.

McGruber

I actually just read this entire post (I must have been bored lol) and I have to say I felt like I was back in college for a second there. Cheers to education and proper grammar you guys crack me up.

My02accord

Wickeddude, how did you convert yours to external coil? I want to do the same and cant find any caps to do this, dont really want to do the ghetto drill a hole and install a power tower in it into my current internal cap. Plus I would have to buy 8 towers when I just need one.
Thanks

I dont want to hear no arguing how its not needed and a waste of money and blah blah blah...I have a MSD box laying around for my mustang and want to put it to use in the meantime...

WiCkeDuDe

Sorry I didnt see this until now. I used the MSD cap part number 8294 and the blaster ss coil to convert to an external coil.