Mr.Speed

Hey anyone have any tricks or tips about torquing the drive axle nuts on my 1998 Honda Accord?

They are supposed t o be torqued to 181 ft/lbs of torque, man that is alot, problem is my torque wrench only goes up to 150 ft/lbs!

I don't really want to go by a new wrench just for two nuts! And no I do not know anyone with a torque or impact wrench that goes up that high.

Just thought someone might have a tip or trick or any suggestions?

thanks

The-Kid

If you want, go to autozone and rent their torque wrench. It goes up to 181ft lbs and beyond. It's free, just need to pay deposit. Not sure if you have an autozone where you live.

In anycase, do short burst tightening it with a breaker car and you should be good to go. and making a dimple in the nut will ensure that thing won't move. I didn't torque mine, but it's been great so far.

Mr.Speed

Yah sucky I live in Canada and no AutoZone here!

Do you know and concern about over torquing it? Will it be hard on the bearing?

Thanks

The-Kid

180ft lbs is a lot. I think if you use your current torque wrench and crank it up to like 140 ft lbs then follow up with a burst of a breaker bar with a cheater extension, I think you should be good to go. =P

My opinion on the wheel bearing, I highly doubt it would have an effect. Maybe some other members here would like to clarify on this...?

ricebike

hmm the OPs torque wrench is probably the smaller 3.8" drive one

you can also rent the 1/2" torque wrench from pepboys/ advance auto parts/ or a similar auto parts store

+ if you want, you can have a buddy sit inside the vehicle & apply the brakes while you're out there to torque to final specs...

AFAccord

I find that every time I torque those nuts down, the previous dimple in the nut lines up 1/8"-1/4" from the indention on the shaft. By the time you tighten it enough to line the two up together, it's torqued down plenty. You'd be hard pressed to even push it past that point.

AccordVT

Definitely torque the axle nuts to exactly 181ft/lbs or to the factory spec. Renting a wrench is a good idea if you don't think your only going to need to torque something that high once. Otherwise you can find a decent wrench in auto parts stores or online, try sears. I'm not sure of the knuckle or wheel bearing design on the 98 but my 94 has a hub over rotor design and the drive axle spline is not pressed into the hub, it is held in by the axle nut. The nut provides pre-load on the wheel bearing. Put it too high and the bearing will fair prematurely, too loose and you run the risk of it lossening.


Modified by AccordVT at 8:00 AM 11/6/2008

otilram

get a torque wrench from Princess Auto.

95accordguy69

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I think by this weekend I will definitely need an answer and some 'proof'...

95 Accord just changed out passenger side wheel bearing. I was at a DIY shop and was unsure what to torque the nut to. I didn't torque it enough on the first go around and got about 100 ft before putting it back up in the air to figure out what wasn't 'right' in the front end. The guy that owned the shop gives me his biggest impact (he said rated around 500 ft-lb) and says torque it down as far as it will go. That didn't sound right, but I'm not a mechanic and did as told.

I started noticing problems immediately upon leaving the shop. I can 'feel' something (I think its the bearing) at lower speeds (5-25 mph) and I can also hear what sounds more like the brakes rubbing than anything else. I may not be a mechanic, but have always been mechanically inclined and I think that bearing is frying in its own oil.

Can anyone back me up on this?

jamzx3

the impact probably screwed up the axle nut...i have done that in the past..so i know the nut is probably just litely just sitting there....you need to use a torque wrench on it....as for you r other problems i dont know....when i did my axels i also did a r.o.h. swap

phootbag

The axle nut compresses the inner races of the wheel bearing. The axle nut torque is a pre-load on the wheel bearing. The bearing hardness and temper was taken into account by the engineers when deciding what the appropriate torque should be for the axle nut. The torque spec was determined through mathematical formulations. Which is why the torque is 181 ft/lbs and not 180 ft/lbs. Use the proper torque.

Too tight will cause bearing failure or axle stub failure. I've seen both.

phootbag

I would like to add that torquing all bolts to the proper specification is important. You have to think about what is happening to understand why and that it's more than just "tight enough to not fall out or break".

When you tighten a bolt you are causing the bolt to stretch. This stretch makes the bolt act like a spring. This spring effect causes the bolt to act like a clamp. If you had a bolt that was so hard it did not stretch at all the bolt would provide no clamping force no matter how hard to tightened it and would break before it did anything useful. This stretch is calculated by the engineers depending on what is being "clamped". If you over tighten the bolt, the bolt fatigues and will be weak and prone to failure. If you under torque it the bolt doesn't stretch and doesn't provide the appropriate amount of clamping force. This could lead to components coming apart eventually due to vibrations, flexing and expansion and contraction from temperature changes.

phootbag

From a practical standpoint, "tight is tight" may be acceptable. You may never have anything fall apart or break. That's fine. I attribute this to a great wealth of knowledge about metal by manufacturers who make nuts and bolts with very forgiving properties.

If you want to live with the fact that your overtorqued/undertorqued/fatigued bolt just failed and killed a family, go ahead. Live with that.


But, don't ever try to tell me that "tight is tight" when you're putting my car back together.

95accordguy69

Update

I went to autozone, got a torque wrench and borrowed the parking lot next door. Apparently the impact that was used didn't even get it to 150 ft-lbs as I was able to get the nut to back off with VERY little effort. I did spin it with the tire on and off to see if I could tell anything, but nothing seems to be off at all. The sound still persists, below 5 mph, you cannot hear or feel it, soon as u hit 5-25 mph, you can hear and feel it. The brake pads are pretty grooved on the back of the rotor because the previous owner didn't have the rotors turned when he / she replaced the pads. I know the nut didn't back itself off by the way, it was dented in the right spot to keep it from moving and was still in the same position.

Any ideas? It does seem if I put more load on that tire (while in motion, making a turn that puts more weight to that side of the vehicle) that it gets very slightly more noisy if at all. If I take load off the wheel by turning the other direction, it gets quite a bit more quiet.

HighFlight

Are you sure you're not hearing a failing CV joint on that side?

95accordguy69

No, I am not sure of that at all. The boots are worn, but not split yet. Before I replaced the wheel bearing there was no road noise or vibration whatsoever in my vehicle. After the replacement is when the noise began. Other people are having a hard time 'hearing' and 'feeling' the noise. But it is my vehicle and I know what I am supposed to and not supposed to be hearing and feeling.

I was thinking CV earlier as well. Any tips for a test on that?

HighFlight

I'm a DIYer myself, but do all the work on my 94 Accord. My test is to simply crank the wheel all the way over each way and accelerate slightly to load the outside wheel. Bad CV joints "click" or make a thumping sound which can be felt as well.
You might check to ensure that the splash guard isn't rubbing against the rotor.

95accordguy69

Yesterday when I pulled the wheel off I did notice the splashguard was rubbing, I fixed that and the sound decreased a very minimal amount (either from that or retorquing the axle nut). Ill go drive it in a tight circle after work and see what it does. Still open to any other suggestions / comments.

Balwin

I never torque anything unless its threaded into the engine block or head.

Just tighten the hell out of it and stake it.

95accordguy69

And a final update?

Driving in circles revealed nothing, it doesn't increase or decrease the sound, and there are no thumps or otherwise. Took it to my friends last night and got it up on jack stands. With just the passenger side (the side all the issues are on) up in the air and tire or no tire on vehicle, there is a very loud racket coming from that side. Racket is the absolute best description for the sound. Maybe if you were to put a bunch of steel ***** in a can and shake it, that would be similar though quite a bit louder than what I am dealing with.

The sound is paired with vibration that can be felt all over the vehicle. The higher the speed, the louder the sound - and the whole 5-25 mph thing was just a road noise overcoming the failing part noise. The CV shaft in the transmission is a tiny bit loose and can be moved maybe a 1/16th of an inch in any direction - not sure if that is normal. While testing, we put a stick on various parts on that side of the car, stuck it to the ear to see which part was making the most noise. Bar none, it is definitely in the hub assembly unless the vibration and noise is traveling down the shaft from the transmission. We also checked the fluid level, and an arm covered in oil proved low fluid was definitely not the issue.

I hate to do it, but it would appear the next step is to spend another couple hundred bucks replacing the damn bearing again..... That is unless something in here makes a light go off somewhere with someone that has had a similar issue?

95accordguy69

Update

Even if the wheel bearing is part of the issue, putting the car in the air and getting under it with a stethoscope to truly identify where all the racket is coming from has revealed that its in the tranny. Seems like the bearing on the passenger side of the transmission. Problem is I cannot find that bearing online, nor have I actually seen it or know that there is an accessible one on this vehicle without asking here. I have seen an exploded chart of this manual tranny and it seems as though the bearing is a carrier bearing? and it is a bearing on the differential itself, which would mean no access for me. A name, or info on this particular part would be helpful! This is the passenger side by the way.

phootbag

The bearing you are talking about is the carrier bearing. It's one of two bearings that support the differential gear assembly. Good job using the stethescope, by the way. It's a cheap tool that works well.

On a side note, I hope that isn't the actual cause of the noise because that's a pain in the *** to repair.

95accordguy69

Replacing that carrier bearing, is that basically a full rebuild? I ask cuz now I have to decide do I keep the vehicle, or trade it in..... This is something I would like to avoid but I cant see puttin 1500+ into a vehicle that may be lucky to be worth twice that - don't and wont have the cash to do that for quite a while as well and I HAVE to have a dependable vehicle not for work (lucky enuff to live less than a mile from there) but so if there is a family emergency, I can be there and not on the side of the road among other things. Any clue on how long that bearing is going to last afore it decides it's done?

MAD_MIKE

Depends. That bearing supports the differential assembly. To get to it requires splitting of the case, not something can be done in car. The transmission needs to be removed. If the bearing allows enough movement, the final drive gear may become damaged and damage the drive gear on the countershaft. If this happens the final drive gear and countershaft will need to be replaced. At that point if there is that much damage metal shavings may have entered the other bearings causing damage and requiring a full on inspection and rebuild of the transmission.

I would not wait for the bearing to completely fail. Have it replaced ASAP and do not drive the car further until it is fixed.

Mark Scrima

that happened with my 91 Honda Accord and it was the upper control arm with ball joint and that took care of the noise