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Is it the Turbo age?

Old 04-24-2012, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by joeshmo View Post
5) Can be hard to market to certain groups (the elderly, concerned parents, soccer moms...)
This is a strong argument. Look no further than the first-gen RDX's failure for an example of how the non-enthusiast public views turbo motors in mainstream vehicles.

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
You dont think we are losing anything with this all turbo revolution?
I certainly do

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC
Really, how much different does that sound than a VTEC Honda? Not as much as the tifosi would like to think.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Flat plane V8s are just 2 inline 4s sharing a crankshaft, so thats not a far off assessment.

Turbos definitely have their benefits, but lets not forget what they take away. For me personally, I would rather just eat the higher gas costs and drive an older, cheaper, lighter, smaller N/A car than buy a brand new turbo car.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:59 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Turbos definitely have their benefits, but lets not forget what they take away.
What do they take away?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Kiwibird83 View Post
What do they take away?
That douchebag bro feel.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by EJeff8 View Post
That douchebag bro feel.
:daps:
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Kiwibird83 View Post
What do they take away?
Sound + response. And by the choice of many manufacturers, revs.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Flat plane V8s are just 2 inline 4s sharing a crankshaft, so thats not a far off assessment.
Alright! lol

I've taken so much **** over the years for comparing Ferrari sounds to DOHC VTEC sounds.

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC
Turbos definitely have their benefits, but lets not forget what they take away. For me personally, I would rather just eat the higher gas costs and drive an older, cheaper, lighter, smaller N/A car than buy a brand new turbo car.
And even then, it will take some time for us to collectively understand if the new tech is actually better for fuel efficiency in practice. Real-world MPG for small-displacement DI turbo engines like the Juke's has been very disappointing so far.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Sound + response. And by the choice of many manufacturers, revs.
Because a TIAL BOV sounds absolutely horrible and because eliminating turbo lag is impossible.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by EJeff8 View Post
Because a TIAL BOV sounds absolutely horrible and because eliminating turbo lag is impossible.
A BOV is a sound, but not the same as an uncorked N/A motor. This is like a restaurant saying "well we ran out of steak, but if you want we have really good mac and cheese you can have instead." Yea both might be good, but one is not a replacement for the other. If you don't like one it can't replace the other.

And as long as an engine has to spool a turbo, there will be a little slack in its throttle response at some point of operation.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Sound + response. And by the choice of many manufacturers, revs.
Response? Someone isn't up on turbo technology. Lack of revs can be helped by gearing.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
And as long as an engine has to spool a turbo, there will be a little slack in its throttle response at some point of operation.
Agreed, but I think you're on the verge of strawmanning here...the conversation is about the turbo age, meaning mainstream, everyday cars. On all these common cars that are being produced with turbo's, the turbo's are so small that there is very, very little lag to the point where the common, casual driver won't know the difference. Yes, it exists relative to a N/A motor, but the drawback is negligble.

When you start talking about throttle response and engine sounds, you're getting away from the crux of the argument. OEM's care about fuel efficiency, power, and most of all, cost. You said it yourself:

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
"Mercedes just got another 40HP out of the M156, what's our response?"

"Develop brand new engine, or turn N54 waste gate screw 1/8th turn. Hmmmm"

This is not the turbo era. Its the green era. Turbochargers allow the horsepower of a V12 with the CO2 output of a 3 banger
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Sound + response. And by the choice of many manufacturers, revs.
Sound is highly subjective

Response loss is negligible to non-existent in an age of variable, high efficiency turbos that actually create a 1:1 or even .5:1 backpressure to intake pressure ratio.

Proper design leads to no restriction in RPM range.


So the only perceivable negative is a highly subjective loss of sound? How will we ever survive?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
You dont think we are losing anything with this all turbo revolution?

No turbo cars will ever sound like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-UVV9aiUKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkAFTYoyK2U#t=93
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzW8ECb5xWk#t=13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYv1_orFB-U

For me that is kind of important, especially in a performance car. For a DD, who cares. But in a sports car/sedan that is supposed to thrill the senses, you shouldn't need an engine note generator. At least with EPS, some manufacturers have got it right. I haven't heard any modern turbocharged engines that sound good. Even the MP4-12C sounds impotent in person.
No NA car will sound like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHkefDQyQ9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oePNi...feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiICgtdfMXk

It's all relative.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Kiwibird83 View Post
How will we ever survive?
One 'bbbrrrraaaAAAAAPPPPPPPffffssshhhhhhhh' at a time
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by 213374U View Post
One 'bbbrrrraaaAAAAAPPPPPPPffffssshhhhhhhh' at a time
Do you even race wars bro?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Alldayerrrrrrrrrrrday! Come at me bruh!
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

But "organic" feel doe.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:01 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by MrDomino View Post
But "organic" feel doe.
Been waiting for that gem to pop up all thread.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Kiwibird83 View Post
Sound is highly subjective



So the only perceivable negative is a highly subjective loss of sound? How will we ever survive?
Considering that some companies are now starting to put "interior sound enhancers" in their sportier offerings, sound means more to a performance car buyer than you might think.

And can anyone really say with a straight face that a turbo motor sounds as good as a n/a motor that revs past 8K rpms?

Typical GDD, stuck in the rut that is HP. Nevermind the other things that make a car fun to drive--if it ain't got HP, then it must suck.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Ross View Post
And even then, it will take some time for us to collectively understand if the new tech is actually better for fuel efficiency in practice. Real-world MPG for small-displacement DI turbo engines like the Juke's has been very disappointing so far.
But real-world mpg for the Cooper S, GTI, 528i, and many other small-displacement DI turbo engines is good. There will always be those who adopt the technology better than others.

Even then, we all know MPG has a lot to do with the driver.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Look, I put it like this. If you like turbos, then these are great times. If you don't, well, couple of things. One, not liking turbos isn't weird, its a preference like anything else. So posting vids of turbo engine sounds is pointless. The point is the two engine types don't sound the same, so if you like one and not the other what difference does it make? Someone who likes BOVs and muted exhausts doesnt give a **** about induction noise. Etc.

Two there is def a culture shift towards turbocharging. Manufacturers are going w/boost over displacement for their high performance models. BMW is all turbo. Again if you like N/A I am not sure how this can be spun as a good thing. And its happening purely because of emissions.

Bottom line I think choice is the best option. People like turbos, cool, they can have what they want. But turbo cars shouldn't come at the expense of good N/A ones. But w/the way things look it seems like that is where we are headed. People can try and minimize the differences all they want. But at the end of the day a VW 2.0T is nothing like a K20. And its not wrong for some folks to prefer the K20.

*EDIT* Like Todd said its not all about #s.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Todd00 View Post
Considering that some companies are now starting to put "interior sound enhancers" in their sportier offerings, sound means more to a performance car buyer than you might think.
I never said it wasn't. The point was that sound being subjective means that some people enjoy the sound a turbo car makes over an NA car, just like some people enjoy the sound a rumbling V8 makes over a screaming 4 cylinder.

And can anyone really say with a straight face that a turbo motor sounds as good as a n/a motor that revs past 8K rpms?
What about a turbo engine that revs to 8k RPM?



Typical GDD, stuck in the rut that is HP. Nevermind the other things that make a car fun to drive--if it ain't got HP, then it must suck.
Who said anything about High HP=Fun car in this thread? You're the first to bring it up.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Todd00 View Post
Considering that some companies are now starting to put "interior sound enhancers" in their sportier offerings, sound means more to a performance car buyer than you might think.

And can anyone really say with a straight face that a turbo motor sounds as good as a n/a motor that revs past 8K rpms?

Typical GDD, stuck in the rut that is HP. Nevermind the other things that make a car fun to drive--if it ain't got HP, then it must suck.
First off, they added "interior sound enhancers" because people wanted the car to be quiet during cruise and loud during full throttle accelerations.

Second, it's not a horsepower thing. Don't expect this new era of turbocharging to come with increased horsepower. You're getting the same amount of power but better efficiency and lower emissions. I already spelled this out on the first page. Did you bother to read the thread or did you just skip to the end to share your opinion on something that was already discussed?
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

I kind of wish the FR-S had a 1.5L turbo motor....sadly it just doesn't doe...
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Is it the Turbo age?

Originally Posted by Kiwibird83 View Post
I never said it wasn't. The point was that sound being subjective means that some people enjoy the sound a turbo car makes over an NA car, just like some people enjoy the sound a rumbling V8 makes over a screaming 4 cylinder.
Right, but there is another layer to it. For a long time, the term 'sports car' conjured up an image of a high-revving machine.

This is back when sporting cars had either an inline six or a V12 and anything else was considered imbalanced and uncivilized.

Americans' insistence on huge straight-line power (we pretty much invented drag racing) has led us to seek other ways of making power. i.e. huge V8s and turbos.

But on a track or a set of windy backroads, nothing beats the traditional formula of light weight and a revvy motor that makes its power in the last 1/3 of its rev range.

Originally Posted by Whats Up DOHC View Post
Look, I put it like this. If you like turbos, then these are great times. If you don't, well, couple of things. One, not liking turbos isn't weird, its a preference like anything else. So posting vids of turbo engine sounds is pointless. The point is the two engine types don't sound the same, so if you like one and not the other what difference does it make? Someone who likes BOVs and muted exhausts doesnt give a **** about induction noise. Etc.

Two there is def a culture shift towards turbocharging. Manufacturers are going w/boost over displacement for their high performance models. BMW is all turbo. Again if you like N/A I am not sure how this can be spun as a good thing. And its happening purely because of emissions.

Bottom line I think choice is the best option. People like turbos, cool, they can have what they want. But turbo cars shouldn't come at the expense of good N/A ones. But w/the way things look it seems like that is where we are headed. People can try and minimize the differences all they want. But at the end of the day a VW 2.0T is nothing like a K20. And its not wrong for some folks to prefer the K20.

*EDIT* Like Todd said its not all about #s.
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