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Teaching kids to fight?

 
Old 03-14-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tokyosmash! View Post
HURR DURR THE BEST FIGHTERS ARE LOUD CHEST BEATERS /Activeaero

my sons TKD instructor, 8th degree black belt. EIGHTH. Never heard him raise his voice above a calm tone. Currently had 5 national champions under him, 3 of which are his kids




Loud people are compensating for something.
Who said anything about being loud? I just said John Kreese's methods are far better if you want to know how to actually fight since he had his students doing serious sparring. If you're going to learn how to fight and had to pick two options:

1. Painting fences and doing crane kicks at the beach.
2. Full contact sparring.

Which one do you think is going to win out?


And your 8th dan instructor? We're talking about fighting, not Taekwondo, which I did for most of my life and also have a black belt in. That 8th dan instructor would likely get wrecked in a real fight by anyone with just a few years of decent combat training.


Martial Arts instruction is weird. We pay people who have no record of fighting and no track record of coaching people to be successful fighters to teach us to fight because they tell us they know how to fight because they've been practicing it their whole lives but have never actually done it.

Imagine if we did that in other areas of life. Want to learn to play Piano? Pay the guy who says he has been practicing Piano his whole life but has no record of actually being able to play a complex piece. Trust him though, if he ever did have to play he'd be best ever because he's been doing practice drills for 30 years. Golf coach? He's never actually shot a decent score on 18 holes but if he ever did he'd be the best because he's really good at driving range drills. Football coach? Never actually coached a team to win a real game, but he totally would win state if you let him. Yeah, ok lol.

Martial Arts for fun, fitness and the study of the art itself can often times be very separate things than actually learning how to fight even if the masters who have been doing it their whole lives have deluded themselves into thinking they actually know how to do something they have hardly any experience doing (fighting for real).


I love the martial arts, in fact I loved freestyle forms and all of the completely impractical stuff. I just eventually got to the point in my life where I stopped BS'ing myself and taking up for what is often times a lot of smoke and mirrors, self delusion and in some cases the arguably dangerous practices of teaching self defense to people that is anything but.

Oh and just to cause a **** storm I'm technically a national champion as well. I originally started out in Shaolin Ngor Chor Kung-Fu and won gold at the U.S. Championships in forms and got 4th in sparring.

And once I transitioned to TKD I also beat the **** out of a member of the U.S. Olympic Taekwondo trial team 6-0 while they were preparing for what would have been the 2000 Olympics.

Sounds like total BS but it's all true lol. At one time in my life I was a decent little martial artist.

But yeah let's hate on me because I'm not defending mystical movie martial art BS and saying that practical sparring is very important if you really want to learn how to fight.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

I've been around MMA guys most of my life, dated Chuck Liddel's sister, used to go to the bars with Nick and Nate Diaz, and I've seen those guys outside of the ring. No blackbelt stands a chance against a serious MMA fighter in a street fight.

I thought that was well known.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:12 PM
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ITT: AA is secretly Frank Dux.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

Originally Posted by Tokyosmash! View Post
ITT: AA is secretly Frank Dux.
Quite the opposite. I'm the wanna-be-ninja guy who woke up the first time I sparred an actual kick boxer and he pushed my sh*t in.

90% of 8th Dan national champion Black Belt hall of fame masters would get crushed in a real street fight by half of the 200lb bubbas out there with a year of practical combat training under their belt.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:35 PM
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Former UFC and WEC champion Dominick Cruz was challenged by a "Ninja" to 2 fights, one in MMA and one on the feet. These type of challenge matches are important because it showcases the problems of arts that don't train enough "liveness" element. Liveness means fighting against a resisting opponent. While traditional arts can be good with theory, they lack in liveness and this missing element is why they lose against full contact arts. It's clear that the Ninja has some form of training and was quite athletic, but also that he has little to no training on the ground or experience dealing with trained strikes. The grappling elements in this breakdown exist throughout early grappling training, and Mr. Ninja made many mistakes that everyone can learn from. Everyone can also learn from how Dominick Cruz capitalized on Ninja's mistakes.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:06 PM
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

Originally Posted by ActiveAero View Post
Quite the opposite. I'm the wanna-be-ninja guy who woke up the first time I sparred an actual kick boxer and he pushed my sh*t in.

90% of 8th Dan national champion Black Belt hall of fame masters would get crushed in a real street fight by half of the 200lb bubbas out there with a year of practical combat training under their belt.
Sounds like you suck?

For a guy against point based fighting, why are you then using point based fighting to validate art forms?

Fighting is all up to the individual anyways. You can't say "all TKD masters would get wrecked by *insert other style here*". Some people can handle themselves and apply what they've learned better than others.
Maybe YOUR TKD masters were teaching YOU "too much woo woo BS". Mine taught me how to fight. It wasn't always fancy spin kicks and forms training. We learned full on boxing techniques, footwork was always an emphasis, etc.
You can properly defend yourself using TKD using 3 basic kicks.

The ONE time I've used a kick in a REAL fight, it ended it immediately. Guy came running right at me and I front kicked him square in the jaw.

What I'm saying is....to come across like it's useless is asinine. It can provide a great base for fighting. It can come in handy in real world fighting.



Last edited by usdm420; 03-15-2019 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

Spinning back kick is my favorite kick. You get caught with one of those and you're not gonna have a good time.

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Old 03-15-2019, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

Originally Posted by usdm420 View Post
Sounds like you suck?
National champ, demolished a member of the U.S. Olympic trial team but suck because when I was 150-160lbs the 220-230lb state undefeated heavy weight kick boxing champ could work me over? I mean yeah I guess lol.


Fighting is all up to the individual anyways. You can't say "all TKD masters would get wrecked by *insert other style here*". Some people can handle themselves and apply what they've learned better than others.
Maybe YOUR TKD masters were teaching YOU "too much woo woo BS". Mine taught me how to fight. It wasn't always fancy spin kicks and forms training. We learned full on boxing techniques, footwork was always an emphasis, etc.
You can properly defend yourself using TKD using 3 basic kicks. What I'm saying is....to come across like it's useless is asinine. It can provide a great base for fighting. It can come in handy in real world fighting.
You sound a bit defensive about this. I didn't say all, I said 90%. And I didn't say TKD was useless either. There are tons of awesome things about TKD that can be applied to real fighting, but it is very important to make the distinction and to realize that a ton of it is pretty worthless and potentially detrimental to real fighting.

Yeah and of course your master is different. Everyone's is. Please post your master's full contact fight record.

And yeah my instructors were total woo-woo instructors hence me being a sparring partner with the heavy weight full contact kick boxing champ. Guess their woo-woo worked enough to help a guy win a full contact kick boxing title. Getting my teeth undercutted through my lip was very woo-woo too lol. That said my instructors weren't perfect and it was a very redneck outfit but the good thing is they knew it and admitted it themselves. I like to think I got a good dose of all sides of the martial arts spectrum, from woo-woo nonsense to some pretty hardcore sparring.

And I don't know why some people get so butt hurt about just admitting to themselves that martial arts can be more than learning about how to fight. It's actually ok to like a martial art for things that might not be great in a real fight.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

My Master didn't have a "full contact fight record". He grew up fighting in the streets. Sounds a lot like the Corba Kai guy, except without the loud Rah Rah "kill'em all!" bullshit.
My GRAND MASTER however was some Grand Champion somewhere. I'd have to dig around in S. Korean records as he's now 60+ and retired. He passed the school onto my Master who is now a 7th degree (was 5th degree when I was training under him).

I think we're actually agreeing on most things tbh. Martial Arts SHOULD teach you more than just fighting....that was MY whole argument from the jump.

I'll just say this, TKD can be an AWESOME base for learning to fight. Your kids will learn discipline, footwork, blocking, striking, etc. What the child does with that base is up to him/her/the parent later down the road. Or how their Master, or IF their Master integrates other art forms in. For example we were taught basic weapons as well, which isn't a "TKD thing".

What Federation was your Master aligned with?

Last edited by usdm420; 03-15-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:09 AM
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Training for technique and sparring vs. training to incapacitate/kill as quickly as possible are very different and result in 2 very different types of fighters. The former has far more obstacles to overcome to translate his practice into a win during a real fight. I believe this is the point Brock is trying to make and I definitely agree.

If your master grew up fighting on the streets then he went into the art with some experience and a completely different mindset than most.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 213374U View Post
Training for technique and sparring vs. training to incapacitate/kill as quickly as possible are very different and result in 2 very different types of fighters. The former has far more obstacles to overcome to translate his practice into a win during a real fight. I believe this is the point Brock is trying to make and I definitely agree.
I agree. What I'm saying is, MY TKD instructor focused on real world application a **** ton. He's against "woo woo BS" being taught. The discussion was sparked by me speaking against gung ho instructors. That has nothing to do with learning proper fighting techniques. My Korean instructors were traditional as Hell, and "traditional TKD" was taught in military applications dating back a LONG time. My 5th degree Master came from the military, so that translated over to his teachings. Our Grand Master was more into the "mental aspect of it". Fluid movements, forms, and strict discipline were his forte'.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:18 AM
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As for the Olympic fighter types...I know a guy who to this day is still heavily involved in the Peruvian Olympic team, and has been to the Olympics himself a few times (Peter Lopez from California)....and tbh, he's always come across as "soft"..so I understand that part of it too.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Teaching kids to fight?

Originally Posted by usdm420 View Post
My Master didn't have a "full contact fight record". He grew up fighting in the streets. Sounds a lot like the Corba Kai guy, except without the loud Rah Rah "kill'em all!" bullshit.
My GRAND MASTER however was some Grand Champion somewhere. I'd have to dig around in S. Korean records as he's now 60+ and retired. He passed the school onto my Master who is now a 7th degree (was 5th degree when I was training under him).

I think we're actually agreeing on most things tbh. Martial Arts SHOULD teach you more than just fighting....that was MY whole argument from the jump.

I'll just say this, TKD can be an AWESOME base for learning to fight. Your kids will learn discipline, footwork, blocking, striking, etc. What the child does with that base is up to him/her/the parent later down the road. Or how their Master, or IF their Master integrates other art forms in. For example we were taught basic weapons as well, which isn't a "TKD thing".
It's cool man. I get that me playing devil's advocate against Mr. Miyagi made you think I was just crapping all over traditional martial arts. I'm not. I love them and for more than just the fighting aspect.

Originally Posted by 213374U View Post
Training for technique and sparring vs. training to incapacitate/kill as quickly as possible are very different and result in 2 very different types of fighters. The former has far more obstacles to overcome to translate his practice into a win during a real fight. I believe this is the point Brock is trying to make and I definitely agree.
Pretty much.

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Old 03-15-2019, 07:41 AM
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Why are we talking about John fcking Creese and hyping our old Grand Masters up, instead of talking about Rico's videos of the Gracie's just demolishing and demoralizing cats?

P.S. Can't wait to see what Kron's future holds.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 816d16 View Post
Why are we talking about John fcking Creese and hyping our old Grand Masters up, instead of talking about Rico's videos of the Gracie's just demolishing and demoralizing cats?

P.S. Can't wait to see what Kron's future holds.
Because if anyone acknowledged the Gracie family it would blow apart the whole “structured martial arts is bullshit” thing I guess.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:51 AM
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Dont forget Royce was smaller than everyone he founght in UFC 1 and 2 IIRC.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:52 AM
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
Dont forget Royce was smaller than everyone he founght in UFC 1 and 2 IIRC.
Don't forget Matt Hughes demolished him with a wrestling/boxing background.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:58 AM
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by usdm420 View Post
Don't forget Matt Hughes demolished him with a wrestling/boxing background.
Not to make excuses, but wasnt Royce like 40 in that fight vs Matt at 30?
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
Not to make excuses, but wasnt Royce like 40 in that fight vs Matt at 30?
Yep. And it was UGLY from start to finish. I felt terrible for Royce.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tokyosmash! View Post
Because if anyone acknowledged the Gracie family it would blow apart the whole “structured martial arts is bullshit” thing I guess.
But Gracies actually fight, which is what people are talking about lol.

Even better is when Masahiko Kimura came over from Japan and absolutely rag dolled Helio Gracie with traditional Japanese Judo.
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