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Most French police don't carry a firearm

 
Old 01-09-2015, 08:42 PM
  #126  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

both holsters are right hand draw, though.
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Old 01-09-2015, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by GoodEyeSniper View Post
according to the statistics, it makes a lot of sense for France. And I think they were specifically referring to your "logic" about the suspects being killed by armed officers, therefore an armed officer would have potentially made a huge impact arriving on the scene. Which is extremely wishful thinking. He was going into a scenario with so many unknowns, versus more people, with much more armament, who were ready to kill anyone. As a cop the odds were stacked against him astronomically. sure, there's a chance he wouldn't have been peppered from outside of his effective sidearm range before being executed... But I think it's rather small.
I fail to see how it makes sense...unless French police officers would somehow be more likely to accidentally shoot civilians. My guess is it makes French civilians feel better with unarmed police officers running around...and for the most part they've gotten away with it. I'm just not comfortable with the idea that unarmed police officers were in the area and ordered to stand down...after the first officer was so easily shot and killed.

Unarmed Paris Police Retreated From Terrorist Gunmen | The Daily Caller EDIT: this is the first time I've read carrying a firearm is optional...was my understanding it wasn't allowed. Either way, its irresponsible.

As the saying goes...its better to have and not need...than need and not have.
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:11 PM
  #128  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Are we arguing that police NOT having guns is a good thing?
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:55 PM
  #129  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Chet could post a thread saying the sky is blue, and by the 3rd page we'd have confirmed the sky is in fact, orange.
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:04 AM
  #130  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
Are we arguing that police NOT having guns is a good thing?
Comparing police statistics and public perceptions versus the United States indicates that western Europe does it better.
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:33 AM
  #131  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by 020 View Post
Comparing police statistics and public perceptions versus the United States indicates that western Europe does it better.
I think where we've gone the most wrong has less to do with guns and more to do with departments that are not connected to the communities.

There's an advantage to being out of your car, on foot, immersed in the community and just helping people and interacting with them. Even in modern Pimlico or even Soho you'll see this...no guns needed despite the very urban nature of the environment.

On the other hand, we can hardly expect a Prince William uniform to be very enthusiastic about emulating that kind of beat in Woodbridge. The environment's all wrong, and the disconnections are long live'd.

We can't change it overnight, but I definitely believe that part of the answer is in the immersion of the officers in the community.

The way that police forces are constructed, there is usually mostly a community within the uniforms, and not so much a community with the civilians, and that's what has to change.

But that's just one dumb old man's opinion, and I couldn't tell you how to start to change it.
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Old 01-10-2015, 07:36 AM
  #132  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by 020 View Post
Comparing police statistics and public perceptions versus the United States indicates that western Europe does it better.
Having a gun does not mean you have to use it. Its there for a just in case.

Im sure the officer that was shot on the ground would have preferred to at least be able to fight back even if he wouldn't have survived.
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Old 01-11-2015, 04:52 AM
  #133  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
Having a gun does not mean you have to use it. Its there for a just in case.

Im sure the officer that was shot on the ground would have preferred to at least be able to fight back even if he wouldn't have survived.
This doesn't address the point that Europe clearly has a superior system.
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Old 01-11-2015, 04:53 AM
  #134  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by George Knighton View Post
I think where we've gone the most wrong has less to do with guns and more to do with departments that are not connected to the communities.

There's an advantage to being out of your car, on foot, immersed in the community and just helping people and interacting with them. Even in modern Pimlico or even Soho you'll see this...no guns needed despite the very urban nature of the environment.

On the other hand, we can hardly expect a Prince William uniform to be very enthusiastic about emulating that kind of beat in Woodbridge. The environment's all wrong, and the disconnections are long live'd.

We can't change it overnight, but I definitely believe that part of the answer is in the immersion of the officers in the community.

The way that police forces are constructed, there is usually mostly a community within the uniforms, and not so much a community with the civilians, and that's what has to change.

But that's just one dumb old man's opinion, and I couldn't tell you how to start to change it.
I agree completely. We currently have an occupying force one step from a posse comitatus violation.
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Old 01-11-2015, 05:21 AM
  #135  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by 020 View Post
This doesn't address the point that Europe clearly has a superior system.
More like a different culture. Didnt seem like a superior system when those guys were gunning everyone down.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:11 AM
  #136  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
More like a different culture. Didnt seem like a superior system when those guys were gunning everyone down.
Semi auto firearms and unlimited capacity magazines don't seem like a great idea after newtown, aurora and Virginia tech.
I can only presume you think policies should be changed, no?
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by Penfold View Post
Semi auto firearms and unlimited capacity magazines don't seem like a great idea after newtown, aurora and Virginia tech.
I can only presume you think policies should be changed, no?
I think they are perfectly fine after those incidents.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:19 AM
  #138  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

A disarmed society, no thanks.
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Old 01-11-2015, 11:32 AM
  #139  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by .Ryan View Post
A disarmed society, no thanks.
Seriously.

Who the hell gave those guys the license to buy those AK47s? France must have some lax as hell gun laws!
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:12 AM
  #140  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
More like a different culture. Didnt seem like a superior system when those guys were gunning everyone down.
In most of the States, I think the US has a good compromise.

But there seems to be a difference between the theory and the execution.

To what extent would it have been harder to perpetrate such a crime in the United States.

We might have an armed population, but most of the population who own guns do not go through the extra step of obtaining a CCW and learning the laws related to carrying while going about in the world.

It's also becoming kind of silly having to keep track of where you can and cannot go with a gun, CCW notwithstanding.

I hesitate to suggest what seems to be the obvious solution if we want the people to be able to fight back in such an operation like the one in Paris, and we have to think about whether an armed population would cause more problems than it solves.

To what extent do you believe that people with the usual CCW guns, .380 automatics or .38 Special revolvers, would be able to help in a scenario like the one in Paris? The combat range for the normal CCW gun is much, much closer than the combat range for Russian rifles.

I'm not sure. I'd like to hear what people think.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:07 AM
  #141  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
More like a different culture. Didnt seem like a superior system when those guys were gunning everyone down.
If firearm fatalities are your metric, and it is a good one when discussing homicide by firearm , then Europe is still clearly superior. This was one incident. Even if it happened twice a year, it's still a superior system when using your metrics.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:13 AM
  #142  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

I guess that comes down to "something is better than nothing".

I'm a firm believer that a pistol is solely intended to use to fight your way back to a rifle but in everyday life, not really someting can be done (save for the crazys that roll around with an AR in their trunk)

Personally, in a situation where a person/people armed with any form of automatic rifle were to attack a place I was, I'd want my handgun on me to at the very least, facilitate getting my family away from the area.
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:13 AM
  #143  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by George Knighton View Post
In most of the States, I think the US has a good compromise.

But there seems to be a difference between the theory and the execution.

To what extent would it have been harder to perpetrate such a crime in the United States.

We might have an armed population, but most of the population who own guns do not go through the extra step of obtaining a CCW and learning the laws related to carrying while going about in the world.

It's also becoming kind of silly having to keep track of where you can and cannot go with a gun, CCW notwithstanding.

I hesitate to suggest what seems to be the obvious solution if we want the people to be able to fight back in such an operation like the one in Paris, and we have to think about whether an armed population would cause more problems than it solves.

To what extent do you believe that people with the usual CCW guns, .380 automatics or .38 Special revolvers, would be able to help in a scenario like the one in Paris? The combat range for the normal CCW gun is much, much closer than the combat range for Russian rifles.

I'm not sure. I'd like to hear what people think.
They may not be accurate or effective from distance, but it could have helped. If the guy filming from his room had a rifle, he could have slowed those guys down.

In states where ccws are common, im not really hearing or reading much about shooting over arguments. Maybe there shouldnt be the fear?
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:22 AM
  #144  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by chet View Post
Are you really as stupid as this comment?
Humor: I guess I'm not doing it right.

But thanks for the vote of confidence, doe.
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chet View Post
I think every officer should have at least an AR15 in their vehicle, and at least a 40 caliber pistol on them at all times. Its really pretty simple...and it would give responding officers a chance.

How is that unreasonable?
Side note. Forces are starting to move away from 40 S&W. Seems it's beating up the 9mm frames the guns were based on.

Don't most (all?) squad cars come equipped with a rifle and/or shotgun?
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:27 AM
  #146  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by Penfold View Post
Semi auto firearms and unlimited capacity magazines don't seem like a great idea after newtown, aurora and Virginia tech.
I can only presume you think policies should be changed, no?
Newtown, Aurora, Virginia Tech. What do these all three have in common? All outlawed guns on the premises. Only criminals carried there, and now we see the results.

Non sequitur - law enforcement could still carry per departmental policy.
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:51 AM
  #147  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
In states where ccws are common, im not really hearing or reading much about shooting over arguments. Maybe there shouldnt be the fear?
Norfolk, Richmond and NoVA have quite a few firearms related deaths, and Virginia is a "shall issue" state.

For whatever that is worth.

I don't really know what you mean to convey with the qualifier, over arguments [sic].
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:45 AM
  #148  
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

It's kind of amusing to hear arguments for pistols being made against rifle carrying bad guys.

At 20 yards you are already at a disadvantage to the rifle with most carrying sized pistols unless you are just a tremendous shot. Even if you are a tremendous shot there are still a number of variables stacked against you.

This is the equivalent of asking why we don't have a Patriot or Arrow missile battery in New York since one time some terrorists flew some planes into some buildings. You don't arm based on isolated incidents. You arm for an average, have preparations in place for above average and pray for the one in a millions.

I wonder what it is truly that we Americans are so insecure about?
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by George Knighton View Post
Norfolk, Richmond and NoVA have quite a few firearms related deaths, and Virginia is a "shall issue" state.

For whatever that is worth.

I don't really know what you mean to convey with the qualifier, over arguments [sic].
Are they as high as say, Baltimore, Richmond Ca, Oakland Ca, St Louis, New Orleans where they are banned/hard to get?
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: Most French police don't carry a firearm

Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
It's kind of amusing to hear arguments for pistols being made against rifle carrying bad guys.

At 20 yards you are already at a disadvantage to the rifle with most carrying sized pistols unless you are just a tremendous shot. Even if you are a tremendous shot there are still a number of variables stacked against you.

This is the equivalent of asking why we don't have a Patriot or Arrow missile battery in New York since one time some terrorists flew some planes into some buildings. You don't arm based on isolated incidents. You arm for an average, have preparations in place for above average and pray for the one in a millions.

I wonder what it is truly that we Americans are so insecure about?
For a POLICE officer to NOT be armed is stupid!

One one one, gun on gun with a rifle, sure you are in trouble. Lets say most of that neighborhood carried. It wouldnt be 2 on one anymore. It would be 7 or more on 2. I'd take those odds.
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