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Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

 
Old 02-25-2019, 06:42 PM
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Default Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

So this has been on my mind for a while. Have been thinking about making this thread ever since this happened, and 816's post finally pushed me to follow through.

Originally Posted by 816d16 View Post
Do, please. It would make for some good reading and arguments.

I still I’ll kind of have a whatever attitude about all of it and am all for people doing as they please to/for themselves. It is kind of reaching some sort of point though. The parents raising “genderless” kids, the trans girls crushing all women counterparts in their sport, and trans kids that are well below even preteen years is perplexing. I also found out through friends and media that a character in a popular video game I play is non bianary and another is gay. That was the very first moment I ever thought about sexual preference of a video game character. It just seems so unnecessary.
For those of you who don't know Martina, she is an inspirational figure for my parents' generation for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is her status as a progressive lesbian icon.

She is one of the GOATs of Tennis. I'll let Wikipedia drop some stats.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Navratilova was world No. 1 for a total of 332 weeks in singles, and a record 237 weeks in doubles, making her the only player in history to have held the top spot in both singles and doubles for over 200 weeks. She was year-end singles No. 1 seven times, including a record of five consecutive years, as well as year-end doubles No. 1 five times, including three consecutive years during which she held the ranking for the entire year.

She won 18 Grand Slam singles titles, 31 major women's doubles titles (an all-time record), and 10 major mixed doubles titles, combined marking the open-era record for the most number of Grand Slam titles won by one player, male or female. She reached the Wimbledon singles final 12 times, including for nine consecutive years from 1982 through 1990, and won the women's singles title at Wimbledon a record nine times (surpassing Helen Wills Moody's eight Wimbledon titles),[10] including a run of six consecutive titles, widely regarded as the best performance by any professional player at a major event. She and Billie Jean King each won 20 combined Wimbledon titles, an all-time record. Navratilova is also one of just three women ever to have accomplished a Career Grand Slam in women's singles and doubles, and mixed doubles (called the Grand Slam "boxed set"), a distinction she shares only with Margaret Court and Doris Hart.
She also became a symbol of freedom for people behind the Iron Curtain:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Originally from Czechoslovakia, she was stripped of her citizenship[13] when, in 1975 at age 18, she asked the United States for political asylum and was granted temporary residence.[14] At the time, Navratilova was told by the Czechoslovak Sports Federation that she was becoming too Americanized, and she should go back to school and make tennis secondary.[15] Navratilova became a US citizen in 1981, and on January 9, 2008, she reacquired Czech citizenship.[16] She stated she has not renounced her U.S. citizenship nor does she plan to do so, and that reclaiming Czech nationality was not politically motivated.[17]
[18]


So...this woman has clout. With liberals, sports fans, and Cold Warriors alike.

Recently that clout has been tested, as she has ignited a huge debate with comments she made about trans women in sports.

Originally Posted by The Nation
Few have done more for LGBTQ visibility in sports over the last four decades than Martina Navratilova. During her illustrious tennis career—she has one of the great athletic résumés in any sport—Navratilova won 18 Grand Slam singles titles and a remarkable 31 major-doubles crowns. In the process, she raised eyebrows and consciousness by coming out early in her career, bringing her partner to matches and being coached for a time by the first professional trans tennis player, Renée Richards. In addition, she has been an outspoken advocate for LGBTQ rights every step of the way. Which is why it was so shocking to hear that Athlete Ally, an advocacy group for LGBTQ people in sports, recently expelled Navratilova from their advisory board on charges of “transphobia.”

At issue was a column that Navratilova wrote for the London Sunday Times, in which she argued that trans women should not be allowed to compete in women’s sporting events. She called it a form of cheating. The offending piece was titled “The rules on trans athletes reward cheats and punish the innocent.”
Here are her remarks. I find them extremely compelling and I'm sure most of you will too.

Originally Posted by Martina Navratilova
To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires…. It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair.
The backlash was quick and she was dropped from her position on the advisory board of "Athlete Ally," an LGBTQ sports advocacy org...and they labeled her comments transphobic in their response.

Then, almost on cue, those two trans (M to F) runners dominated their races in CT, angering many conservatives and drawing the ire of DJT Jr and others: https://www.apnews.com/dcbca5cf940548628dba351f6c91bcd9

Originally Posted by APNews.com
One of their competitors, Selina Soule, says the issue is about fairness on the track with wider implications. The Glastonbury High School junior finished eighth in the 55, missing out on qualifying for the New England regionals by two spots.


Soule believes that had Miller and Yearwood not run, she would be on her way to race in Boston in front of more college coaches.“We all know the outcome of the race before it even starts; it’s demoralizing,” she said. “I fully support and am happy for these athletes for being true to themselves. They should have the right to express themselves in school, but athletics have always had extra rules to keep the competition fair.”


The Connecticut Association of Schools-Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, which governs high school sports in Connecticut, says its policy follows a state anti-discrimination law that says students must be treated in school by the gender with which they identify.


“This is about someone’s right to compete,” executive director Glenn Lungarini said. “I don’t think this is that different from other classes of people, who, in the not too distant past, were not allowed to compete. I think it’s going to take education and understanding to get to that point on this issue.”


Joanna Harper, a medical physicist and transgender runner from Portland, Oregon, says the issue isn’t that simple. She believes there needs to be a standard based on hormone levels.


Until hormone therapies begin to work, genetic males have a distinct advantage over genetic females, she said. Most transgender teens don’t begin hormone therapy until after puberty. Younger teens can be on puberty-blocking drugs, but puberty is very individualized and testosterone levels can vary greatly from one transgender girl to another, she said.


“The gender identity doesn’t matter, it’s the testosterone levels,” said Harper, who studies transgender athletes. “Trans girls should have the right to compete in sports. But cisgender girls should have the right to compete and succeed, too. How do you balance that? That’s the question.”

So now it gets interesting. For me, a diehard liberal (I guess), Martina is a goddess and can do no wrong. She isn't the kind of lesbian that makes you guys want to break out the flamethrowers. She's dignified, graceful, thoughtful, and tough without being overly "butch" or whatever else might make oneludesol post the Jim Carrey throwingup.gif.



She's been on the right side of history on everything, and done it with style--leaving the USSR, coming out LONG before it was cool, being proud without being "in your face", loud without being "shrill", campaigning against the gender pay gap in tennis. Her cred in the progressive and athletic communities is gold.

So she has given cover to folks like me, who may have held their tongues in the past over not wanting to be perceived as homophobes/transphobes, and not wanting anything to do with the Trump crowd.

But now that she is being attacked, I have to defend/support her. She knows of what she speaks. And her past association and friendship with trans tennis players pretty much dismisses the idea that she could be bigoted against trans people.

This is, in addition to being a Trans rights issue, a women's rights issue. IMO, it's absolutely sexist to let biologically female competitors get slaughtered by males who have stopped identifying themselves that way. As Martina says, a man can become a woman, dominate the field of athletics, and then simply reverse his/her decision and go back to being a man later in life. Is that fair? I don't think so and neither does she.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

You, I, she, and every other intellectually honest person with 2 brain cells will see eye to eye on this one. Cant wait to see what Ron bluup bloop has to say...
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
You, I, she, and every other intellectually honest person with 2 brain cells will see eye to eye on this one. Cant wait to see what Ron bluup bloop has to say...
Yeah this might not be a thread full of surprises, but I know Rico and others might be a little more surprised than you are to see me typing like this.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

ban tennis altogether.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Good to see you and trump agreeing on something
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

This is going to sound like it came from a Fox news pundit, but I swear I thought of this analogy on my own. I think this is where the intersectional snake has begun to swallow it's own tail. I really hope it splits the sensible liberals from the lunatic leftists.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

It is a really hard question to come up with a solution too, with a lot of grey area.

Trans folks deserve happiness as much as the rest of us, youth sports can provide that & camaraderie that they may not have gotten elsewhere (they can also be terrible hellscapes but ymmv)

That said, 'born women' deserve to compete on a level playing field.

People like Navratilova should be able to have an open dialogue with trans community leaders come to something that both parties can accept.

That said, people like DJT Jr., and Rico should love this, the capitalist thing to do is allow the people with all the advantages to prosper unencumbered.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
This is going to sound like it came from a Fox news pundit, but I swear I thought of this analogy on my own. I think this is where the intersectional snake has begun to swallow it's own tail. I really hope it splits the sensible liberals from the lunatic leftists.
Looked at in a positive sense, intersectionality might be the thing that kills knee-jerk PC.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by moopmoop View Post
It is a really hard question to come up with a solution too, with a lot of grey area.

Trans folks deserve happiness as much as the rest of us, youth sports can provide that & camaraderie that they may not have gotten elsewhere (they can also be terrible hellscapes but ymmv)

That said, 'born women' deserve to compete on a level playing field.

People like Navratilova should be able to have an open dialogue with trans community leaders come to something that both parties can accept.

That said, people like DJT Jr., and Rico should love this, the capitalist thing to do is allow the people with all the advantages to prosper unencumbered.
Just like bathrooms...trans people need their own playing fields.

otherwise someone is getting screwed.

IMO this can lead to a mutually empowering path forward if people let it.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Looked at in a positive sense, intersectionality might be the thing that kills knee-jerk PC.
Off-Topic: The only people who dislike PC people are inconsiderate jerks.

It is not hard to be PC. It is not hard to read a room.

Etc.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I really hope it splits the sensible liberals from the lunatic leftists.
I couldn't even imagine if that happened. A lot more people would probably get along regardless of which side they are on
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Just like bathrooms...trans people need their own playing fields.

otherwise someone is getting screwed.

IMO this can lead to a mutually empowering path forward if people let it.
Yeah man, the track meet with events held for like 2 competitors making every other parent/student stay late won't bring on resentment at all.

When I ran track I H A T E D waiting for the distance runners, my events were always run pretty early so the rest of the time was just waiting for their garbage to end.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by moopmoop View Post
Off-Topic: The only people who dislike PC people are inconsiderate jerks.

It is not hard to be PC. It is not hard to read a room.

Etc.
BUT the problem is now that PC is limited because of the sheer # of identity groupings we have in 2019.

PC used to mean defending poor and minority communities from the judgments of the white establishment.

But now that gender is such a huge thing...how do you square being a guy who's super-tolerant of Islam with being a feminist?

at some point, one of those ideals has to give. That's where intersectionality comes in.

I'm cool with Muslims. I see them doing a lot of good work.

But women's rights are more important to me than recognizing any religion or national/ethnic identity.

So if your religion/ethnic identity makes you stand for Female Genital Mutilation or hijabs or any other act of total subservience...you can forget it. I can't go there.

Blind PC won't let me say that without being a racist Islamophobe. But intersectionality will.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by moopmoop View Post
Yeah man, the track meet with events held for like 2 competitors making every other parent/student stay late won't bring on resentment at all..
Who the **** cares at this point?

The alternatives are to continue allowing transitioning males to kick the **** out of little girls...or to bar them entirely.

I think the resentment brought on by scheduling concerns is the most manageable of the 3. Don't you?
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Who the **** cares at this point?

The alternatives are to continue allowing transitioning males to kick the **** out of little girls...or to bar them entirely.

I think the resentment brought on by scheduling concerns is the most manageable of the 3. Don't you?
It might be.

It may also just make them feel more isolated.

There aren't always easy solutions.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
You, I, she, and every other intellectually honest person with 2 brain cells will see eye to eye on this one.
#thisiswhywewon
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

You compete in sports with what you were born with between your legs. End of thread. Or if you prefer, what your chromosomes say you are.

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Old 02-25-2019, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by moopmoop View Post
It is a really hard question to come up with a solution too, with a lot of grey area.

Trans folks deserve happiness as much as the rest of us, youth sports can provide that & camaraderie that they may not have gotten elsewhere (they can also be terrible hellscapes but ymmv)

That said, 'born women' deserve to compete on a level playing field.

People like Navratilova should be able to have an open dialogue with trans community leaders come to something that both parties can accept.

That said, people like DJT Jr., and Rico should love this, the capitalist thing to do is allow the people with all the advantages to prosper unencumbered.
This. This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, the person identifies as the opposite gender. On the other hand, the issue of someone obviously stronger playing in the female leagues is one that needs to be considered. From what I've seen in articles after Navratilova spoke out, the strength advantage is gone and playing field events out something like a year after a male athlete takes female hormones. The muscle mass disappears.

Then again, it's strange that Navratilova would be the one speaking out, when she was coached to two Wimbledon titles by Renee Richards, who played women's tennis for something like 5 years. However, googling reveals that Richards seems to share Navratilova's views, so I guess it makes sense.

Not sure what the solution is.

Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Just like bathrooms...trans people need their own playing fields.

otherwise someone is getting screwed.

IMO this can lead to a mutually empowering path forward if people let it.
The bathroom thing is just silly. Trans people have been using the bathrooms of the gender they appear to be just fine until this became a right-wing cause célèbre . Don't fall for the latest GOP boogeyman.

Also, the "own playing fields" reminded be of a Vocativ piece on a transgender Colombian soccer team. They were terrible . Any self-respecting female soccer player would kick their ***. Just found it (warning: there are *****):

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Old 02-25-2019, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by confusedJDMvwGTI View Post
This. This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, the person identifies as the opposite gender. On the other hand, the issue of someone obviously stronger playing in the female leagues is one that needs to be considered. From what I've seen in articles after Navratilova spoke out, the strength advantage is gone and playing field events out something like a year after a male athlete takes female hormones. The muscle mass disappears.

Then again, it's strange that Navratilova would be the one speaking out, when she was coached to two Wimbledon titles by Renee Richards, who played women's tennis for something like 5 years. However, googling reveals that Richards seems to share Navratilova's views, so I guess it makes sense.

Not sure what the solution is.

The bathroom thing is just silly. Trans people have been using the bathrooms of the gender they appear to be just fine until this became a right-wing cause célèbre . Don't fall for the latest GOP boogeyman.
If the first bolded bit is true, that's an important point to make.

As for the other bolded bit, yes. Couldn't say it better.
*
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

So the Olympics have set up guidelines for this. Why not follow them with all sports?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ithout-surgery

...
Under the previous IOC guidelines, approved in 2003, athletes who transitioned from male to female or vice versa were required to have reassignment surgery followed by at least two years of hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete.

Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”.

Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.
...
Under the new rules, an athlete transitioning to a woman must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate that the total level of male testosterone in the blood has been below 10 nanomols per litre for at least a year prior to competing.

The previous rule stated that, in addition to reassignment surgery, the athlete required a minimum of two years of hormone treatment. How long it will take the athlete to reach the new cutoff limit will depend on individual cases, Ljungqvist said.

“If you change sex, you will have to have a hormone level below 10 for 12 months,” he said. “That does not mean a one-year guarantee. You don’t go below 10 from day one. It takes quite some time. It can take more than one year or two years.”

The issue gained extra prominence after former Olympic decathlon champion Caitlyn Jenner announced last year that she had transitioned to a woman.

The IOC document also cited the case of hyperandrogenism, or presence of high levels of testosterone in female athletes.

Indian sprinter Dutee Chand was suspended by the IAAF in 2014 due to hyperandrogenism and missed the Commonwealth games and Asian games.

But the court of arbitration for sport (CAS) suspended the rule last year, saying the IAAF had failed to prove that women with naturally high levels of testosterone had a competitive edge. Chand was cleared to compete, and the court gave the IAAF until July 2017 to present new scientific evidence.

The IOC statement urged the IAAF and others to go back to the CAS with arguments in favor of reinstating the rule.

...
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Make a third category of racers that don't fit into the male/female slots.

If you are whatever gender, you go here and race amongst your peers.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Also Ross, can you make a thread without inserting other posters into it?
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
You, I, she, and every other intellectually honest person with 2 brain cells will see eye to eye on this one. Cant wait to see what Ron bluup bloop has to say...
Thats not Ron, dummie.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

No born males should be able to compete against females where their physical advantage would be obvious.
Now if a born female wants to compete at a disadvantage I don't see a problem with it.
Yes this is a double standard but you can't allow cheaters.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Martina Navratilova blows the Trans Athlete debate wide open

Originally Posted by 1 2 NV View Post
No born males should be able to compete against females where their physical advantage would be obvious.
Now if a born female wants to compete at a disadvantage I don't see a problem with it.
Yes this is a double standard but you can't allow cheaters.
Somehow I doubt this dude's going to have a disadvantage.





The more I think about it, the more the Olympic committee rules make sense. Someone who isn't taking the hormones and has the testosterone levels of a dude shouldn't be playing women's sports. Once the testosterone levels and muscle mass drops, they should be good to go. It doesn't make sense to create a trans league. For one, there's not enough people. More importantly, the person above would then have to compete with someone like this:

[img]
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-57a3332cb350b17b898e737ae9731118[/img]

Also, that person shouldn't have to compete against genetic dudes.
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