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Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

 
Old 03-12-2019, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by ScareyH22A View Post
This is what someone on Reddit said about the MAX design flaw. Mind you, these are brand new planes and shouldn’t have any major maintenance issues.

Boeing’s automatic trim for the 737 MAX was not disclosed to the Pilots
November 14, 2018, The automatic trim Boeing introduced on the 737 MAX, called MCAS, was news to us last week. Graver, it was news to the Pilots flying the MAX since 18 months as well.
Boeing and its oversight, the FAA, decided the Airlines and their Pilots had no need to know. The Lion Air accident can prove otherwise.
By placing the nacelle further forward of the wing, it could be placed higher. Combined with a higher nose landing gear, which raises the nacelle further, the same ground clearance could be achieved for the nacelle as for the 737NG.
The drawback of a larger nacelle, placed further forward, is it destabilizes the aircraft in pitch. All objects on an aircraft placed ahead of the Center of Gravity (the line in Figure 2, around which the aircraft moves in pitch) will contribute to destabilize the aircraft in pitch.
The 737 is a classical flight control aircraft. It relies on a naturally stable base aircraft for its flight control design, augmented in selected areas. Once such area is the artificial yaw damping, present on virtually all larger aircraft (to stop passengers getting sick from the aircraft’s natural tendency to Dutch Roll = Wagging its tail).
Until the MAX, there was no need for artificial aids in pitch. Once the aircraft entered a stall, there were several actions described last week which assisted the pilot to exit the stall. But not in normal flight.
The larger nacelles, called for by the higher bypass LEAP-1B engines, changed this. When flying at normal angles of attack (3° at cruise and say 5° in a turn) the destabilizing effect of the larger engines are not felt.
The nacelles are designed to not generate lift in normal flight. It would generate unnecessary drag as the aspect ratio of an engine nacelle is lousy. The aircraft designer focuses the lift to the high aspect ratio wings.
But if the pilot for whatever reason manoeuvres the aircraft hard, generating an angle of attack close to the stall angle of around 14°, the previously neutral engine nacelle generates lift. A lift which is felt by the aircraft as a pitch up moment (as its ahead of the CG line), now stronger than on the 737NG. This destabilizes the MAX in pitch at higher Angles Of Attack (AOA). The most difficult situation is when the manoeuvre has a high pitch ratio. The aircraft’s inertia can then provoke an over-swing into stall AOA.
To counter the MAX’s lower stability margins at high AOA, Boeing introduced MCAS. Dependent on AOA value and rate, altitude (air density) and Mach (changed flow conditions) the MCAS, which is a software loop in the Flight Control computer, initiates a nose down trim above a threshold AOA.
It can be stopped by the Pilot counter-trimming on the Yoke or by him hitting the CUTOUT switches on the center pedestal. It’s not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors. This would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall.
It’s probably this counterintuitive characteristic, which goes against what has been trained many times in the simulator for unwanted autopilot trim or manual trim runaway, which has confused the pilots of JT610. They learned that holding against the trim stopped the nose down, and then they could take action, like counter-trimming or outright CUTOUT the trim servo. But it didn’t. After a 10 second trim to a 2.5° nose down stabilizer position, the trimming started again despite the Pilots pulling against it. The faulty high AOA signal was still present.
How should they know that pulling on the Yoke didn’t stop the trim? It was described nowhere; neither in the aircraft’s manual, the AFM, nor in the Pilot’s manual, the FCOM. This has created strong reactions from airlines with the 737 MAX on the flight line and their Pilots. They have learned the NG and the MAX flies the same. They fly them interchangeably during the week.
They do fly the same as long as no fault appears. Then there are differences, and the Pilots should have been informed about the differences.


I don't know what material would you like? The plane design or anything specific? This is for me the best material so anyone can understand what I was talking about (boeing fucked up and knew), it is from Reu Ben, pilot, on a forum.
ahh Boeing wtf man...
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
I think most missed the boat however there may be a little more juice to squeeze. I dont see why the stock wouldnt retest the highs.
Because one of their most important planes is in the process of getting grounded by civil aviation authorities across the globe? Maybe in a few months it moves higher again but there is still significant short term pain here, IMO.
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by junior40er View Post
I am about to fly out of Djibouti soon and we always take Ethiopian Airlines in this region. **** me.
Thoughts and prayers
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:02 AM
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:08 AM
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by Uncle Ben's View Post
Right? Like come on FAA, we all know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture is a thing in the United States, but this is so blatant...
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I think it's probable that MCAS is to blame for both crashes.

I'm trying to find the thread on reddit where they explained that MCAS was designed to eliminate what happened with Air France 447, that the pitot tubes froze over and the pilots got inaccurate readings and stalled the aircraft mid flight and it fell into the ocean.

Problem is Boeing didn't tell anyone about this system until the Lion Air crash. Boeing/FAA figured that the 737 MAX was similar enough to the regular 737 that the pilots didn't need any additional training.

After that everyone should have been made aware of the system and what it does. The Ethiopian crash sounds like a carbon copy, but we'll have to wait and see.

If this is all true, I hope Boeing pays dearly for this...300+ people lost their lives due to incompetence.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by FrreeeBird View Post
Because one of their most important planes is in the process of getting grounded by civil aviation authorities across the globe? Maybe in a few months it moves higher again but there is still significant short term pain here, IMO.
A valid concern. Id suggest DCA on the way down.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by BauleyCivic View Post
I think it's probable that MCAS is to blame for both crashes.

I'm trying to find the thread on reddit where they explained that MCAS was designed to eliminate what happened with Air France 447, that the pitot tubes froze over and the pilots got inaccurate readings and stalled the aircraft mid flight and it fell into the ocean.

Problem is Boeing didn't tell anyone about this system until the Lion Air crash. Boeing/FAA figured that the 737 MAX was similar enough to the regular 737 that the pilots didn't need any additional training.

After that everyone should have been made aware of the system and what it does. The Ethiopian crash sounds like a carbon copy, but we'll have to wait and see.

If this is all true, I hope Boeing pays dearly for this...300+ people lost their lives due to incompetence.

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Old 03-12-2019, 07:30 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Richard quest Just confirmed all that.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I just typed that with my back against the front wall at Boeing hq downtown
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Let's see how long it takes for US and Canada to hop on

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Old 03-12-2019, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.15c43ce2b25a

Carl Liu, a 23-year-old pilot who has been flying 737s since last June for a Chinese domestic airline, said the new model would sometimes show that the aircraft was climbing steeply even though it was climbing by 10 degrees, and automated systems would nudge the plane’s nose down, causing a temporary loss of control.“I’ve noticed there is a great deal of error in the MCAS system, so it’s not a one-off incident,” said Liu, who spoke to The Washington Post on the condition that his employer not be identified. “Boeing has not done enough; it never thought about suspending the production or operation of its 737 Max 8 planes even after recurring tragedies.”
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

You'd think they would want to error on the side of caution here. Imagine if another one goes down.....
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by Rguy View Post
You'd think they would want to error on the side of caution here. Imagine if another one goes down.....
Mark my words, this is going to turn out to be an unfortunate series of pilot error and/or maintenance incidents. I'll change my tune if a domestic Max goes down, but I wont hold my breath.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

There’s only 350 MAX in use and 2 went down. It’s only been in service for like a year. Those are some significant numbers.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
Mark my words, this is going to turn out to be an unfortunate series of pilot error and/or maintenance incidents. I'll change my tune if a domestic Max goes down, but I wont hold my breath.
IDK seems like a major fuckup if Boeing introduced this auto correcting feature and did not inform pilots.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Not like I'm even trying to compare, because no lives were lost, but just look at how people reacted when apple introduced unknown parts in their software so that their phones didn't overclock themselves and shut down - if, as others have said, Boeing did this, there is a HUGE deal.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by junior40er View Post
I am about to fly out of Djibouti soon and we always take Ethiopian Airlines in this region. **** me.
The **** you doing at DJ?
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by LightningTeg View Post
IDK seems like a major fuckup if Boeing introduced this auto correcting feature and did not inform pilots.
I'd like to see evidence on that as well, I have a good friend who's a Captain for an airline who operates new 37's. He is the one who's comments have helped form my opinion on the subject at hand. He said there's no way in hell that any operator who purchased the aircraft, was unaware of the feature, and it was up to them to simply inform pilots, or the pilots themselves as there really isn't much to train. Think about it... It's a $100 million piece of hardware with 7000 gallons of napalm, and 200 souls on board. It's not like these pilots walked up to the gate, and were surprised by a shiny new aircraft, they waited for these for years. MCAS is not top secret technology, and is a feature well known and understood by any pilot, carrier, or aviation enthusiast (who cared) long before the first MAX was delivered. The LionAir crash was found to be a maintenance problem, and I'm guessing thos one will be too. I'm confident that the FAA and Boeing would not have a problem grounding these aircraft if there were an actual problem, neither need a 737 shaped crater in American soil. My only input as a pilot (as truly worthless as it is) I'd like to see a quick and easy way go to manual reversion. As all of these safety inputs become more background, they lean really hard on good data. If there is a redundant data failure, these safety features could become dangerous (Airbus went through similar growing pains with the A320 fly by wire, albeit their problems were design flaws) but any pilot worth their salt can fly these things back home safely with nothing more than thrust, free and correct control surfaces, and a view of the horizon.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I'd like to see evidence on that as well, I have a good friend who's a Captain for an airline who operates new 37's. He is the one who's comments have helped form my opinion on the subject at hand. He said there's no way in hell that any operator who purchased the aircraft, was unaware of the feature, and it was up to them to simply inform pilots, or the pilots themselves as there really isn't much to train. Think about it... It's a $100 million piece of hardware with 7000 gallons of napalm, and 200 souls on board. It's not like these pilots walked up to the gate, and were surprised by a shiny new aircraft, they waited for these for years. MCAS is not top secret technology, and is a feature well known and understood by any pilot, carrier, or aviation enthusiast (who cared) long before the first MAX was delivered. The LionAir crash was found to be a maintenance problem, and I'm guessing thos one will be too. I'm confident that the FAA and Boeing would not have a problem grounding these aircraft if there were an actual problem, neither need a 737 shaped crater in American soil. My only input as a pilot (as truly worthless as it is) I'd like to see a quick and easy way go to manual reversion. As all of these safety inputs become more background, they lean really hard on good data. If there is a redundant data failure, these safety features could become dangerous (Airbus went through similar growing pains with the A320 fly by wire, albeit their problems were design flaws) but any pilot worth their salt can fly these things back home safely with nothing more than thrust, free and correct control surfaces, and a view of the horizon.
the good ol' "i have a friend" excuse

trying to pin it on the airlines because theyre from a third world country is tasteless, and pathetic. hurrrdurr merica first
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by xtreme26 View Post
the good ol' "i have a friend" excuse

trying to pin it on the airlines because theyre from a third world country is tasteless, and pathetic. hurrrdurr merica first
Unbunch your panties, babydoll, if you know an Ethiopian '37 pilot, please, by all means, post his anecdotes and I'll take them at face value. Fact of the matter is the first MAX crash was by Lion Air... they have one of the worst safety records in the industry, so bad, in fact, they have been prohibited from flying in EU airspace before. Let that sink in, and apply that to the fact that all data in that crash investigation points to improper maintenance and pilot error. All I said was that I anticipate similar results in this case. As far as I know, you aren't a pilot, nor have you been in any position to experience in depth, the finer details of aviation, especially overseas. Hate to break it to you, but I have. I know you hate the United States for some reason, but rest assured, every time you pay for your $35 ticket on Spirit, put on your Snuggie and slippers, and board a domestic US flight, you may rest assured that you are in the hands of the absolute best pilots the world has to offer, backed up by even better ground crews, and our safety record is a testament to that fact. If you feel so strongly about this, support your point with facts instead of ad hominem.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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yikes, tone down the fox like rhetoric.




Pilots complained at least 5 times about Boeing 737 MAX problems, records show

edit: in your post you;'re referring to a 'friend' and then start saying a bunch of puffery and hella assumptions that is supposedly coming from this 'friend' whos a pilot

He said there's no way in hell that any operator who purchased the aircraft, was unaware of the feature, and it was up to them to simply inform pilots, or the pilots themselves as there really isn't much to train. Think about it... It's a $100 million piece of hardware with 7000 gallons of napalm, and 200 souls on board. It's not like these pilots walked up to the gate, and were surprised by a shiny new aircraft, they waited for these for years. MCAS is not top secret technology, and is a feature well known and understood by any pilot, carrier, or aviation enthusiast (who cared) long before the first MAX was delivered.
it all sounds like random theories from your seriously biased and subjective viewpoints that boeing can do no wrong whatsoever cuz merica.

no snowflake; being as big as a company that Boeing is, and having to implement MCAS to compensate for an anomaly that the revision of the 737 max is causing and not telling anyone about it is pretty self explanatory. something like that would've created headlines maybe err some caution towards their best selling jet, but nope, they decided to keep it quiet and made sure to hit sales targets by selling the jet as a more fuel efficient and quieter version of the fan favourite 737

tldr; get your head out of your ***
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by xtreme26 View Post
yikes, tone down the fox like rhetoric.




Pilots complained at least 5 times about Boeing 737 MAX problems, records show

edit: in your post you;'re referring to a 'friend' and then start saying a bunch of puffery and hella assumptions that is supposedly coming from this 'friend' whos a pilot



it all sounds like random theories from your seriously biased and subjective viewpoints that boeing can do no wrong whatsoever cuz merica.

no snowflake; being as big as a company that Boeing is, and having to implement MCAS to compensate for an anomaly that the revision of the 737 max is causing and not telling anyone about it is pretty self explanatory. something like that would've created headlines maybe err some caution towards their best selling jet, but nope, they decided to keep it quiet and made sure to hit sales targets by selling the jet as a more fuel efficient and quieter version of the fan favourite 737

tldr; get your head out of your ***
Tldr says to "tone down the fox like rhetoric" then posts an article from Politico... nice. Look, let's agree to disagree and revisit this when the verdict is in, less we get all huffy and puffy for no reason.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I bet they dont get the MCAS feature in the 737 max simulator which is where all pilots train and are checked out before flying real passengers for the first time.
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