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Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

 
Old 03-11-2019, 04:24 PM
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Default Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

October 29, 2018
Lion Air, flying out of Indonesia, crashed in a Boeing 737, killing 189 on board, 12 minutes after take off.


January 25, 2019
Ethiopian Airlines, flying out of Lebanon, crashed in a Boeing 737, killing 90 on board, 4 minutes atfer take off.


March 10, 2019
Ethiopian Airlines, flying out of Ethiopia, crashed in a Boeing 737, killing 157 on board, 6 minutes after take off.









The United States told international carriers on Monday that the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is airworthy as regulators scrutinize two fatal crashes of the new model of aircraft since October, but said it will mandate forthcoming “design changes” from Boeing by April.

An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 bound for Nairobi crashed minutes after take-off on Sunday, killing all 157 aboard and raising questions about the safety of the new variant of the industry workhorse, one of which also crashed in Indonesia in October, killing 189 people.

In a notice, the Federal Aviation Administration said it planned to require design changes by Boeing no later than April. Boeing is working to complete “flight control system enhancements, which provide reduced reliance on procedures associated with required pilot memory items,” the FAA said.

The FAA also said Boeing “plans to update training requirements and flight crew manuals to go with the design change” to an automated protection system called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System or MCAS. The changes also include MCAS activation and angle of attack signal enhancements.

The FAA said in the notice made public that external reports are drawing similarities between the crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia. “However, this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions,” according to the Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community for Boeing 737 MAX 8 operators.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN1QS2CL
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I think these cases have more to do with the third world's inability to maintain and operate cutting edge aircraft, than a design flaw. Hopefully Boeing's stock recovers quickly.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

787 dreamliner or gtfo plebs.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

This is what someone on Reddit said about the MAX design flaw. Mind you, these are brand new planes and shouldn’t have any major maintenance issues.

Boeing’s automatic trim for the 737 MAX was not disclosed to the Pilots
November 14, 2018, The automatic trim Boeing introduced on the 737 MAX, called MCAS, was news to us last week. Graver, it was news to the Pilots flying the MAX since 18 months as well.
Boeing and its oversight, the FAA, decided the Airlines and their Pilots had no need to know. The Lion Air accident can prove otherwise.
By placing the nacelle further forward of the wing, it could be placed higher. Combined with a higher nose landing gear, which raises the nacelle further, the same ground clearance could be achieved for the nacelle as for the 737NG.
The drawback of a larger nacelle, placed further forward, is it destabilizes the aircraft in pitch. All objects on an aircraft placed ahead of the Center of Gravity (the line in Figure 2, around which the aircraft moves in pitch) will contribute to destabilize the aircraft in pitch.
The 737 is a classical flight control aircraft. It relies on a naturally stable base aircraft for its flight control design, augmented in selected areas. Once such area is the artificial yaw damping, present on virtually all larger aircraft (to stop passengers getting sick from the aircraft’s natural tendency to Dutch Roll = Wagging its tail).
Until the MAX, there was no need for artificial aids in pitch. Once the aircraft entered a stall, there were several actions described last week which assisted the pilot to exit the stall. But not in normal flight.
The larger nacelles, called for by the higher bypass LEAP-1B engines, changed this. When flying at normal angles of attack (3° at cruise and say 5° in a turn) the destabilizing effect of the larger engines are not felt.
The nacelles are designed to not generate lift in normal flight. It would generate unnecessary drag as the aspect ratio of an engine nacelle is lousy. The aircraft designer focuses the lift to the high aspect ratio wings.
But if the pilot for whatever reason manoeuvres the aircraft hard, generating an angle of attack close to the stall angle of around 14°, the previously neutral engine nacelle generates lift. A lift which is felt by the aircraft as a pitch up moment (as its ahead of the CG line), now stronger than on the 737NG. This destabilizes the MAX in pitch at higher Angles Of Attack (AOA). The most difficult situation is when the manoeuvre has a high pitch ratio. The aircraft’s inertia can then provoke an over-swing into stall AOA.
To counter the MAX’s lower stability margins at high AOA, Boeing introduced MCAS. Dependent on AOA value and rate, altitude (air density) and Mach (changed flow conditions) the MCAS, which is a software loop in the Flight Control computer, initiates a nose down trim above a threshold AOA.
It can be stopped by the Pilot counter-trimming on the Yoke or by him hitting the CUTOUT switches on the center pedestal. It’s not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors. This would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall.
It’s probably this counterintuitive characteristic, which goes against what has been trained many times in the simulator for unwanted autopilot trim or manual trim runaway, which has confused the pilots of JT610. They learned that holding against the trim stopped the nose down, and then they could take action, like counter-trimming or outright CUTOUT the trim servo. But it didn’t. After a 10 second trim to a 2.5° nose down stabilizer position, the trimming started again despite the Pilots pulling against it. The faulty high AOA signal was still present.
How should they know that pulling on the Yoke didn’t stop the trim? It was described nowhere; neither in the aircraft’s manual, the AFM, nor in the Pilot’s manual, the FCOM. This has created strong reactions from airlines with the 737 MAX on the flight line and their Pilots. They have learned the NG and the MAX flies the same. They fly them interchangeably during the week.
They do fly the same as long as no fault appears. Then there are differences, and the Pilots should have been informed about the differences.


I don't know what material would you like? The plane design or anything specific? This is for me the best material so anyone can understand what I was talking about (boeing fucked up and knew), it is from Reu Ben, pilot, on a forum.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I think these cases have more to do with the third world's inability to maintain and operate cutting edge aircraft, than a design flaw. Hopefully Boeing's stock recovers quickly.
Ethiopian Airlines has an excellent safety record and the most recent crash was a four month old 737 MAX
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by ScareyH22A View Post

Boeing’s automatic trim for the 737 MAX was not disclosed to the Pilots


MCAS

Not disclosing the software, no prior notice, nothing in the manual, no training, etc... is what might bite Boeing in the ***.




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Old 03-11-2019, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Hoping to buy some buying $BA on a deep discount, once investigation is concluded

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I think these cases have more to do with the third world's inability to maintain and operate cutting edge aircraft, than a design flaw. Hopefully Boeing's stock recovers quickly.
are you implying because they are low IQ people that they can't maintain high tech aircraft?
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by xtrac1 View Post
Ethiopian Airlines has an excellent safety record and the most recent crash was a four month old 737 MAX
Their Lebanon crash from what I heard was due to bad weather, and pilot error.

The Lion Air crash was due to maintenance crew improperly setting up a newly installed pitot tube, which caused a cascade of bad data and subsequent wrong control inputs.

I haven't looked up either of these recently and am just reciting from memory, so please correct me if I'm wrong or if the stories developed further.

I wouldn't think twice about jumping on board a domestically operated '37 MAX
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
Their Lebanon crash from what I heard was due to bad weather, and pilot error.

The Lion Air crash was due to maintenance crew improperly setting up a newly installed pitot tube, which caused a cascade of bad data and subsequent wrong control inputs.

I haven't looked up either of these recently and am just reciting from memory, so please correct me if I'm wrong or if the stories developed further.
One of the crashes did take place during difficult weather conditions. These incidents are rather recent so the investigations are ongoing.

Take offs and landings are dangerous but take offs do seem rather simple.

Mash the throttle and after a few seconds, you pull up on the stick
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I think these cases have more to do with the third world's inability to maintain and operate cutting edge aircraft, than a design flaw. Hopefully Boeing's stock recovers quickly.

I sold a **** ton of BA put spreads. Boeing aint going NOWHERE.

Makes some money off of this people!!!
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by oneludesol View Post
I think these cases have more to do with the third world's inability to maintain and operate cutting edge aircraft, than a design flaw. Hopefully Boeing's stock recovers quickly.
you racist pig! : )
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

@ Ross and @ Bluu reading this thread like...


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Old 03-11-2019, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
I sold a **** ton of BA put spreads. Boeing aint going NOWHERE.

Makes some money off of this people!!!
Boeing probably bribing investigators as we speak
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

@ Rico the Troll

seek some psychiatric help brah
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by kidcool1977 View Post
Boeing probably bribing investigators as we speak
Honestly...they have enough money and contacts.

You guys remember the exxon mobile spill...oh you forgot too. Stock took a tumble there too. Came right back.

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Old 03-11-2019, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Look at that chart!!! Look at all those buyers!!! Easy money!!!


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Old 03-11-2019, 05:21 PM
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by kidcool1977 View Post
Hoping to buy some buying $BA on a deep discount, once investigation is concluded
I wouldn't call this a deep discount...


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Old 03-11-2019, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

**this morning the @ 9:45 am price was $372, you're right not deep but ok. I'm looking for $250 price entry

Rico do a YT video on options(if you haveb't already), need to step my game up.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I think most missed the boat however there may be a little more juice to squeeze. I dont see why the stock wouldnt retest the highs.

Originally Posted by 96dxB16 View Post
I wouldn't call this a deep discount...

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Old 03-11-2019, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by rico91stang View Post
I think most missed the boat however there may be a little more juice to squeeze. I dont see why the stock wouldnt retest the highs.
If you want to make a quick profit off the deaths of 436 people, you do have to react much quicker.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by xtrac1 View Post
If you want to make a quick profit off the deaths of 436 people, you do have to react much quicker.
I don't own any (was about to buy) thus I feel no guilt

RIP to my Ethiopian brothers and sister
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I only fly Qantus, they have zero crashes
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

Originally Posted by xtrac1 View Post
Not disclosing the software, no prior notice, nothing in the manual, no training, etc... is what might bite Boeing in the ***.

Should've offered the training at least.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crash in the Boeing 737

I am about to fly out of Djibouti soon and we always take Ethiopian Airlines in this region. **** me.
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