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Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system?

 
Old 12-19-2002, 06:22 AM
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Default Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system?

Should we create special classes of victims?

Should we criminalize thought, or only actions?
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

Hate crimes are stupid. It doesn't matter if you kill a guy because he's black or if you kill him because he's banging your wife. He's still just as dead.

Besides in a free society people are allowed to think and speak whatever they want regardless of how offensive they may be. You can't legislate thought.
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

We already classify murder on the level of premeditation, and on intent too, assasination anyone?

Hate crimes are an extension of this, but I don't think it's needed, there should be one kind of murder offense.


[Modified by BlackAxis, 10:50 AM 12/19/2002]
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

How the hell could hate crimes be helping the system?
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

Followup:

"Should we criminalize thought?" is a can of worms, our law system does alot of that. In the realm of drug law, you can get charged with the INTENT to distribute, which is a hazy area that any prosecutor can paint someone with a large amount of drugs with. Paraphanalia too.




[Modified by BlackAxis, 10:54 AM 12/19/2002]
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (sparq)

How the hell could hate crimes be helping the system?
By making examples of crimes society deems particulary horrendous?

Like we do with first degree murder?
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

they are NOT needed at all......

murder is murder no matter what color skin
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

How the hell could hate crimes be helping the system?

By making examples of crimes society deems particulary horrendous?

Like we do with first degree murder?
First degree murder indicates you planned the act in advance.

Intent to distribute implies that you had more than a personal amount. I.E., physical evidence was found. That is not thought. That is a logical conclusion.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

First degree murder indicates you planned the act in advance.
Yes, that you THOUGHT about it in advance, planning can take all within the murders head, and it's put on trial.

Intent to distribute implies that you had more than a personal amount. I.E., physical evidence was found. That is not thought. That is a logical conclusion.
"More than a personal amount?" Maybe I'm saving for the lean times, or I grow for personal use and don't like to do it year round, grow a shitload and then save it.

What makes a terrorist different than a mass murderer? Yeah, that's right, intent.


[Modified by BlackAxis, 11:12 AM 12/19/2002]
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

You guys do realize that murder isn't the only thing a hate-crime can attach to don't you?

Paul
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:13 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (tec-9-7)

You guys do realize that murder isn't the only thing a hate-crime can attach to don't you?
Yes.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

most of the time they use them in murder or assault cases though
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (FifthGearOnline)

most of the time they use them in murder or assault cases though
I think their primary value is in assault/aggrivated assault/attempted murder/property crimes...

In these cases, I think they are immensely valuable.

Paul
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

Planning is action you took. Not merely thinking about the act.

The hate crimes charge is an additional charge heaped upon the 1st degree murder charge. So if a black man kills a white man in a robbery is that a worse offense than a black man killing a white man b/c he is in the wrong part of town?
Is this act worthy of additional punishment? What is the difference? Should the black man be charged with hate crimes because he doesn't like white people as a whole? It is America after all, and if we have freedom of speech one could infer that we definitely have freedom of thought.

If that is more wrong why stop there? Why not charge people for issuing racial slurs? We could put up sensors in public places. Single out insensitive offendors who utter things [QUOTE]society deems particulary horrendous? QUOTE]. Would that be wrong? If so, why is it any less wrong to charge someone for there personal feelings instead of (as well as) there personal actions?

Oh and the drug related charges: if you could prove those reasons you could beat the intent to distribute charges. That is what the trial is for.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (tec-9-7)

[qoute]I think their primary value is in assault/aggrivated assault/attempted murder/property crimes...

In these cases, I think they are immensely valuable.[/quote]

Why is it valuable? I don't get it, motivation doesn't matter. You still commited a crime and I don't see why a person who didn't do it for racial reasons should get any less of a penalty or be charged with any less offenses than someone who did.

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Old 12-19-2002, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (tec-9-7)

most of the time they use them in murder or assault cases though

I think their primary value is in assault/aggrivated assault/attempted murder/property crimes...

In these cases, I think they are immensely valuable.

Paul
So is the victim of racially motivated assault more harmed than a victim of a regular old assault given that all other factors are equal?
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (newt2)

Why is it valuable? I don't get it, motivation doesn't matter. You still commited a crime and I don't see why a person who didn't do it for racial reasons should get any less of a penalty or be charged with any less offenses than someone who did.
Oh come on now - of course motivation matters - that's why there's a difference between varying degrees of murder and manslaughter...

Paul


[Modified by tec-9-7, 8:47 AM 12/19/2002]
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

So is the victim of racially motivated assault more harmed than a victim of a regular old assault given that all other factors are equal?
All factors are almost never equal - did you know that pulling a baseball bat out of your trunk and threating someone is aggrevated assault, just like hitting them with it? I think that yes, racially or sexually motivated assaults (yes I consider gay-bashing to be a hate crime) tend to move on into the whacking stage than the threatening stage...

Paul
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (tec-9-7)

I have no idea what you mean by whacking stage.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Ehron)

usually when you commit a crime like assult or murder, it is because you hate that person.

I personally don't think that any crime should be decided by the mental state of the person in question.

Drunk driving is an example. A guy has a few beers and goes home and slams into a family of 4.

Is that any worse than the guy who stays up too late, or tired, or forgot thier glasses they need to drive and slam into a family of 4?

Is the loss any greater when the person who did it was drunk, high or just a dumbfuck?

I think they should upgrade the severity of some of the crimes judgements, and forego with any decision of a mental state.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (BlackAxis)

First degree murder indicates you planned the act in advance.
Yes, that you THOUGHT about it in advance, planning can take all within the murders head, and it's put on trial.
they can only prove if there is physical evidence. If they have a note in thier planner that says "thursday 2:30 pm: kill bob" or if you made a purchase of a weapon and two weeks later used it on the person that you knew.


Intent distribute implies that you had more than a personal amount. I.E., physical evidence was found. That is not thought. That is a logical conclusion.
"More than a personal amount?" Maybe I'm saving for the lean times, or I grow for personal use and don't like to do it year round, grow a shitload and then save it.
if you are cuaght with 5 kilos of H. then you are very likely to sell it. Drugs aren't like wholesale toilet paper.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (tec-9-7)

Why is it valuable? I don't get it, motivation doesn't matter. You still commited a crime and I don't see why a person who didn't do it for racial reasons should get any less of a penalty or be charged with any less offenses than someone who did.

Oh come on now - of course motivation matters - that's why there's a difference between varying degrees of murder and manslaughter...

Paul


[Modified by tec-9-7, 8:47 AM 12/19/2002]
That's not motivation. Motivation is why you did what you did. Varying degrees of murder are whether you planned to kill someone or even intended to kill someone (manslaughter). In no way does any degree of murder take into account WHY you killed someone.
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Old 12-19-2002, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (newt2)

In Canada we have fairly strict hate crime offenses....

This just happened this week

Native Leader makes anti-semitic Statements

This guy resigned from every position he had about 2 days later, and is being investigated by the RCMP. It is a crime to "publicly incite hate" like he tried to do. He made some half-assed apology, but everyone here is pretty appalled. It's so ironic a guy from a minority group would hate on another minority group. He'll get his.
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Old 12-19-2002, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (satan_srv)

gotta love the lack of a first Amendment there...

In Canada we have fairly strict hate crime offenses....

This just happened this week

Native Leader makes anti-semitic Statements

This guy resigned from every position he had about 2 days later, and is being investigated by the RCMP. It is a crime to "publicly incite hate" like he tried to do. He made some half-assed apology, but everyone here is pretty appalled. It's so ironic a guy from a minority group would hate on another minority group. He'll get his.
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Old 12-19-2002, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Hate Crimes: Helping or Hindering the legal system? (Notorious N.A.G)

gotta love the lack of a first Amendment there...
And we are effectively doing that here with Trent Lott. Of course It's selective. A married high ranking democrat had sexual relations with some guys daughter in the oval office and his appollagized and the media screamed "all should be forgiven, he appollagized!" and Trent Lott makes a stupid statement and alppollagizes and they are saying "get a rope!".
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