When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
As title say's,
I'm going to be assembling my 400whp+ B16 over the winter and am unsure whether or not it would be a good idea to upgrade the GSR valves i have here. I will be using Rocket motorsport valve springs and TI retainers (GEN2) and i will be planning to rev to 9000+. I'd imagine a higher valve spring pressure combined with high rpm and higher cylinder temps would have some influence on whether or not it would be a good idea to upgrade them ? ?.
The car will be a daily driver with the odd track/drag strip day.
Thank you for your time.
P.S. Could one of the mods please stick a "r" in aftermaket please
I'm going to be assembling my 400whp+ B16 over the winter and am unsure whether or not it would be a good idea to upgrade the GSR valves i have here. I will be using Rocket motorsport valve springs and TI retainers (GEN2) and i will be planning to rev to 9000+. I'd imagine a higher valve spring pressure combined with high rpm and higher cylinder temps would have some influence on whether or not it would be a good idea to upgrade them ? ?.
The car will be a daily driver with the odd track/drag strip day.
Thank you for your time.
P.S. Could one of the mods please stick a "r" in aftermaket please
#2
Moderator
iTrader: (14)
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
Usually most prudent people use aftermarket valves when the original ones have either been bent or have so much carbon on the valve that it literally has fused itself to be part of the valve. Using a flat-topped valve helps with some increased compression, but not necessarily a gain in horsepower.
There is some ambiguity in the use of "oversized valves", though most Americans with our general philosophy of "bigger is always better", tend to use oversized valves with the thinking that it will allow more ingested air to come through and discharge, but that logic is debatable. Some companies that make camshafts specifically state not to use oversize valves, though I honestly am not sure as to why. If Skunk or ALL MOTOR or others in the all motor forums would chime in their input, it would make a great discussion.
There is some ambiguity in the use of "oversized valves", though most Americans with our general philosophy of "bigger is always better", tend to use oversized valves with the thinking that it will allow more ingested air to come through and discharge, but that logic is debatable. Some companies that make camshafts specifically state not to use oversize valves, though I honestly am not sure as to why. If Skunk or ALL MOTOR or others in the all motor forums would chime in their input, it would make a great discussion.
#3
Honda-Tech Member
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
There is some ambiguity in the use of "oversized valves", though most Americans with our general philosophy of "bigger is always better", tend to use oversized valves with the thinking that it will allow more ingested air to come through and discharge, but that logic is debatable. Some companies that make camshafts specifically state not to use oversize valves, though I honestly am not sure as to why. If Skunk or ALL MOTOR or others in the all motor forums would chime in their input, it would make a great discussion.
#4
Moderator
iTrader: (14)
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
I guess I've run them for years, without any issues, and only NOW hear about these additional risks.
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
The valves i have aren't in bad condition really, they could do with a slight decoke but thats about it... I know our valves are a two piece welded design as i have tested them with a magnet. Its the fact that there welded what concern's me. I know the weld is going to be damn strong BUT i doubt it will be as strong as a one piece forged design.
I'll drop ALLMOTOR a pm with a link to this thread. Please let people know that you feel will have a good input.
Thank you
I'll drop ALLMOTOR a pm with a link to this thread. Please let people know that you feel will have a good input.
Thank you
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
oversized valves can help with flow, that's why they're available.
#7
Moderator
iTrader: (14)
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
you can run oversized valves if you check v2v at different degrees on the cams, but a lot of people just throw things together half assed and then end up with problems. some cams actually require you to seat the valve deeper in the head.
oversized valves can help with flow, that's why they're available.
oversized valves can help with flow, that's why they're available.
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#8
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Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
They are supposed to have a higher tensile strength to accept the more agressive slapping on the seat due to spring rate from performance springs/cams, and also prevent stretching in high HP motors. So i hear. When are they too be used, idk?
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
you should always replace exhaust valves in a rebuild. those things have a finite life and will frag on you eventually.
as for aftermarket, ferrera is lighter but the exhaust valves should ideally be inconel in FI apps, ferrera, at least their standard line are just 1pc stainless. i know ferrera makes inconel and titanium valves, just can't remember if they do for honda.
taken from manley about inconel
as for aftermarket, ferrera is lighter but the exhaust valves should ideally be inconel in FI apps, ferrera, at least their standard line are just 1pc stainless. i know ferrera makes inconel and titanium valves, just can't remember if they do for honda.
taken from manley about inconel
Developed for Top Fuel and Funny Car. Perfect for marine, restricted carburetor circle track, or any application that imposes enormous heat on the valves. Superior strength and fatigue resistant characteristics.
#10
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
I'd imagine heat would come into it to, specially for the exhaust valves. Wouldn't valve stretch be more in high rpm use ? Actually, i know a engine that was blown to pieces due the valve & rod stretch at just over 9000rpm.
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
you should always replace exhaust valves in a rebuild. those things have a finite life and will frag on you eventually.
as for aftermarket, ferrera is lighter but the exhaust valves should ideally be inconel in FI apps, ferrera, at least their standard line are just 1pc stainless. i know ferrera makes inconel and titanium valves, just can't remember if they do for honda.
taken from manley about inconel
as for aftermarket, ferrera is lighter but the exhaust valves should ideally be inconel in FI apps, ferrera, at least their standard line are just 1pc stainless. i know ferrera makes inconel and titanium valves, just can't remember if they do for honda.
taken from manley about inconel
Last edited by rich7777; 10-18-2011 at 10:22 AM.
#12
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
Some info on Ferrea's competition plus valves (There top valve's)
"COMPETITON PLUS VALVES
Ferrea Racing Component’s Competition Plus Valves have built a reputation as the industry’s most reliable racing valve. Ferrea are dedicated to providing the absolute best product on the market.
Ferrea's extensive R & D programs provide technological enhancements that are implemented in each of their competition plus valves. They are engineered for high rpm’s, high horsepower racing engines, and are chosen by many top Drag, Oval Track, Road Racing and Sprint Car teams.
To manufacture the valves Ferrea uses special aerospace quality alloys, including the EV8-Z18, which provides high tensile strength. An exclusive two-step slow forging process ensures proper grain flow and virtually eliminates any damage to the material structure. The valves are then heat-treated and stress-relieved over a 48-hour period, which is the crucial base of Ferrea's molecular integrity. These valves feature avionics-quality hard chrome along with a specially applied hard tip. Ferrea's engineering staff spends countless hours conducting flow bench tests to achieve an optimum balance of flow, velocity and efficiency in the design of these valves. As a result, these valves incorporate smoother radiuses and unique undercuts. These exclusive features are what make the Ferrea Competition Plus Valves unequalled in performance and reliability!
The evolution in volumetric efficiency of today’s competition engines has increased the average engine EGT. These higher ExhaustGas Temperatures decrease the longevity of the valves as well as creating higher levels of metallurgical fatigue. These increased stress loads create an environment in the engine conducive to valve failure.
The exhaust valves in the Competition Plus series are manufactured from Ultra High Strength, High Temp Nickel Stainless Steel Alloys. Ferrea first used this material with great success during the development of a very high stress, high temp endurance racing program.
Listed below are some qualities of the Competition Plus Exhaust Valve material:
• Tensile strength increased by 20% at high temperature
• Fatigue resistance increased by 20%
• Valve seat life increased by 25%"
"COMPETITON PLUS VALVES
Ferrea Racing Component’s Competition Plus Valves have built a reputation as the industry’s most reliable racing valve. Ferrea are dedicated to providing the absolute best product on the market.
Ferrea's extensive R & D programs provide technological enhancements that are implemented in each of their competition plus valves. They are engineered for high rpm’s, high horsepower racing engines, and are chosen by many top Drag, Oval Track, Road Racing and Sprint Car teams.
To manufacture the valves Ferrea uses special aerospace quality alloys, including the EV8-Z18, which provides high tensile strength. An exclusive two-step slow forging process ensures proper grain flow and virtually eliminates any damage to the material structure. The valves are then heat-treated and stress-relieved over a 48-hour period, which is the crucial base of Ferrea's molecular integrity. These valves feature avionics-quality hard chrome along with a specially applied hard tip. Ferrea's engineering staff spends countless hours conducting flow bench tests to achieve an optimum balance of flow, velocity and efficiency in the design of these valves. As a result, these valves incorporate smoother radiuses and unique undercuts. These exclusive features are what make the Ferrea Competition Plus Valves unequalled in performance and reliability!
The evolution in volumetric efficiency of today’s competition engines has increased the average engine EGT. These higher ExhaustGas Temperatures decrease the longevity of the valves as well as creating higher levels of metallurgical fatigue. These increased stress loads create an environment in the engine conducive to valve failure.
The exhaust valves in the Competition Plus series are manufactured from Ultra High Strength, High Temp Nickel Stainless Steel Alloys. Ferrea first used this material with great success during the development of a very high stress, high temp endurance racing program.
Listed below are some qualities of the Competition Plus Exhaust Valve material:
• Tensile strength increased by 20% at high temperature
• Fatigue resistance increased by 20%
• Valve seat life increased by 25%"
#14
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Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
As far as stock honda valves go i found this, its also appears there is EV8 alloy on the intake. For 400WHp i would keep stock valves.
Originally Posted by omniman;25818824 The stock Honda valve materials:
In: stem= SUH11 Head=SUH35(EV-8)
Ex: Stem= SUH11 Head =NCF751 (Inconel based alloy)
From a classification stand point the materials above stand as follows:
[B
In: stem= SUH11 Head=SUH35(EV-8)
Ex: Stem= SUH11 Head =NCF751 (Inconel based alloy)
From a classification stand point the materials above stand as follows:
[B
SUH11[/B] Extreme Duty Stem material, Medium duty intake valve head material, Light duty Ex. valve material (not normally used on ex head)
SUH35/EV-8 Extreme duty intake material, medium duty exhaust material
NCF751/Inconel: Extreme Duty exhaust material.
Extreme meaning: for the most demanding environments
http://omnipowerusa.com/product.asp?P_ID=129
SUH35/EV-8 Extreme duty intake material, medium duty exhaust material
NCF751/Inconel: Extreme Duty exhaust material.
Extreme meaning: for the most demanding environments
http://omnipowerusa.com/product.asp?P_ID=129
#15
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Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
Yes, thats a good thing to mention. Thats why i went for a new set of aftermarket springs.
#16
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#17
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Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
if stock is ev8 and inconel i would stay there. you can use more spring pressure if need be to make up for the extra few grams.
funny, oem is actually stronger metal than the average aftermarket
funny, oem is actually stronger metal than the average aftermarket
#18
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Re: When are aftermaket valves called for in a FI application ?
ive been using the same oem valves/head in a 400-500 hp motor for 4 years now. total mileage is about 40,000 at that power level. the only issue i had was one time i had to get some of the exhaust the valves touched up by my machinist after getting a little too aggressive on the antilag. even so, it wasnt anything bad enough for me to need new valves and i didnt loose any compression from it
#20
Man U FTW
#21
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Re: When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
sanman, how many hits have you made with stock valves? i'm going for 600whp and i'm also debating on if i should go aftermarket valvetrain. i don't wanna waste a built engine on a valve breaking.
my concious is telling me to just buy valves....
my concious is telling me to just buy valves....
#22
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Re: When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
**** wow man i garauntee ive had over 250 hits
ive been through 4 short blocks now, and on the same head lol
oh and then back on a stock short block and now on a built b16a2 and about to get tuned out again.
i do have upgraded springs in it and thats it.
ive been through 4 short blocks now, and on the same head lol
oh and then back on a stock short block and now on a built b16a2 and about to get tuned out again.
i do have upgraded springs in it and thats it.
#23
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Thread Starter
Re: When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
Bump for info on oversized valves.
I would like to know :
What effect they have on the engines volumetric efficiency (VE) / Powerband.
What effect (if any) they have on low & high engine speed combustion.
The effect on exhaust gas velocity/turbo spool.
Thank you
I would like to know :
What effect they have on the engines volumetric efficiency (VE) / Powerband.
What effect (if any) they have on low & high engine speed combustion.
The effect on exhaust gas velocity/turbo spool.
Thank you
#24
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iTrader: (1)
Re: When are aftermarket valves called for in a FI application ?
From my personal experience, I would go with aftermarket valves from the get go. I thought I would be fine with stock valves since people have said stock valves are hit and miss for alot of guys. I was apparently a miss in this particular instance. I took a chance with it and it cost me an engine after 3 days. I plan on buying ferrea comp plus everything because the way I see it, the money I spend on those now will save me lots of money on the back end. Just my $0.02.
Build specs:
84mm AEBS sleeved b18c1
CP pistons
Manley I beam rods
Supertech springs and retainers
S2 pro1 cams
PTE billet 6262
ID2000s
e85
Car made 620whp
Then:
**** luck.
Build specs:
84mm AEBS sleeved b18c1
CP pistons
Manley I beam rods
Supertech springs and retainers
S2 pro1 cams
PTE billet 6262
ID2000s
e85
Car made 620whp
Then:
**** luck.