What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it?
10-06-2008, 11:46 AM
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What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it?
I got a freshly buid motor and I want to break it in without hitting boost.
If I remove the waste gate spring, is anything going to happen? since no pressure will be in the turbo, will it cause it to leak? or free spin? or both?
If I remove the waste gate spring, is anything going to happen? since no pressure will be in the turbo, will it cause it to leak? or free spin? or both?
10-06-2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it? (R.A.T.)
With no waste gate spring you may have the chance to damage the diaphragm as it may overextend and cause it to rip. The turbo will spin freely, but without back pressure you may have a chance to damage the turbo over spinning it.
10-06-2008, 12:18 PM
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Re: What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it? (Rtype16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rtype16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With no waste gate spring you may have the chance to damage the diaphragm as it may overextend and cause it to rip. The turbo will spin freely, but without back pressure you may have a chance to damage the turbo over spinning it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
if it's a tial it won't stretch
if it's a tial it won't stretch
10-06-2008, 12:23 PM
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Re: What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it? (TiAL)
It's a tial 44mm and the manifold is a AFI top mount.
But running no spring, won't it cause any oil leaks in the turbo since there will be no pressure? I read about some of the RX7 guys discussing something like this.
But running no spring, won't it cause any oil leaks in the turbo since there will be no pressure? I read about some of the RX7 guys discussing something like this.
10-06-2008, 03:14 PM
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If you are that concerned about break in, why not just put a manifold on the car and run it NA for the break in?
If it was me, id just turn the boost down, break it in and tune it.
If it was me, id just turn the boost down, break it in and tune it.
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10-06-2008, 04:26 PM
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Re: (tony413)
Ok, let me explain my situation here:
started my car a few days ago after putting the full build together. After leaving it idle for a while white smoke started coming out of the exhaust, it didn't smell bad though. We shut off the engine regardless and noticed a small oil leak. When we found where it was, it was from the "brand new turbo" the exhaust side.
While we did this we removed the waste gate spring so we don't see any boost.
The oil line is from the back of the block on a t fitting and the turbo is a gt35r
The oil feed line was 3/16" with no restrictor, we changed it to a -4AN with a restrictor.
The same thing continued happening, oil leaking on the exhaust side into the downpipe.
The oil return line is a -10AN coming straight down from the turbo into the oil pan.
Here are the pics of the oil return line:
Before anyone says "is this a real gt35r?" yes it is.
I removed it and send it back to the company that sold it to me. They brought it to Garrett who in turn says, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. The only thing is that it has metal shavings in it from the block in the oil passages. They cleaned it and are now sending it back to me.
In the mean time I'm trying to come up with solutions so soon as I receive it tomorrow I know what to try out to see if there is a problem or not.
In order to resolve the metal shavings, I purchased this:
Inline oil filter
Then today I read this in a RX7 forum which led me to believe that maybe this was happening because the waste gate spring was removed:
This is from: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=727476
Also, soon as I install the turbo back on the car tomorrow, I will shorten the return line and put a 45 degree fitting to help it go even more downwards into the oil pan.
So what do you guys think?
Because the spring not being in the waste gate, could this cause my leak?
What do you guys think of the oil return line?
The oil feed is on the top straight up on the turbo and the oil return is on the bottom straight down on the turbo.
I've been seeing alot of threads about peoples brand new turbos smoking in the past few days, I'm getting a little worried cuz they don't seem to be resolving their issue either.
started my car a few days ago after putting the full build together. After leaving it idle for a while white smoke started coming out of the exhaust, it didn't smell bad though. We shut off the engine regardless and noticed a small oil leak. When we found where it was, it was from the "brand new turbo" the exhaust side.
While we did this we removed the waste gate spring so we don't see any boost.
The oil line is from the back of the block on a t fitting and the turbo is a gt35r
The oil feed line was 3/16" with no restrictor, we changed it to a -4AN with a restrictor.
The same thing continued happening, oil leaking on the exhaust side into the downpipe.
The oil return line is a -10AN coming straight down from the turbo into the oil pan.
Here are the pics of the oil return line:
Before anyone says "is this a real gt35r?" yes it is.
I removed it and send it back to the company that sold it to me. They brought it to Garrett who in turn says, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. The only thing is that it has metal shavings in it from the block in the oil passages. They cleaned it and are now sending it back to me.
In the mean time I'm trying to come up with solutions so soon as I receive it tomorrow I know what to try out to see if there is a problem or not.
In order to resolve the metal shavings, I purchased this:
Inline oil filter
Then today I read this in a RX7 forum which led me to believe that maybe this was happening because the waste gate spring was removed:
Originally Posted by rx7forum
...In a mission to understand how the oil bearings work, I ran 0 boost temporarily on this project car for a short period of time. The other reason is I haven't got my fuel mods in yet and wanted to test out the install briefly. I tried to do a couple of test runs with one of the compressor pipes off, and it would spray oil out of it but only under load. At idle it will not spray engine oil out the compressor pipe no matter how depressed the throttle is. And it will not smoke from the exhaust in either condition.
Okay, so then I hooked the compressor pipe back inline and removed the wastegate spring off the exhaust path to limit exhaust entering the turbine side which would also lower turbine pressure. The compressor pipe oil spraying was fixed but then the exhaust began to have a slight smoke from oil entering exhaust side.
So from these test what I am coming to understand is you cannot run the turbo without complete pressure from either side (turbine or compressor) otherwise the oil seal will be suseptible to leakage. From what I have read the oil seals require positive pressure from both sides to seal the oil in.
Okay, so then I hooked the compressor pipe back inline and removed the wastegate spring off the exhaust path to limit exhaust entering the turbine side which would also lower turbine pressure. The compressor pipe oil spraying was fixed but then the exhaust began to have a slight smoke from oil entering exhaust side.
So from these test what I am coming to understand is you cannot run the turbo without complete pressure from either side (turbine or compressor) otherwise the oil seal will be suseptible to leakage. From what I have read the oil seals require positive pressure from both sides to seal the oil in.
Also, soon as I install the turbo back on the car tomorrow, I will shorten the return line and put a 45 degree fitting to help it go even more downwards into the oil pan.
So what do you guys think?
Because the spring not being in the waste gate, could this cause my leak?
What do you guys think of the oil return line?
The oil feed is on the top straight up on the turbo and the oil return is on the bottom straight down on the turbo.
I've been seeing alot of threads about peoples brand new turbos smoking in the past few days, I'm getting a little worried cuz they don't seem to be resolving their issue either.
10-06-2008, 05:29 PM
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hah you must have read my post about those -4an inline filters 
the DSM guys use them religiously.
anyways shortening your oil return may help because it does look like it may old a bit of oil, but it sound like you may have other problems. best beat is to just clean the engine and then dry it off, drive the car around and check for leaks
the DSM guys use them religiously. anyways shortening your oil return may help because it does look like it may old a bit of oil, but it sound like you may have other problems. best beat is to just clean the engine and then dry it off, drive the car around and check for leaks
10-06-2008, 05:39 PM
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Re: What would happen if I run the WasteGate with no spring in it? (soon2bdropped)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soon2bdropped »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just take out the chargepipes man</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, definetly don't do this.
Running with no spring is the best option, although I reccomend just getting the engine tuned/broken in on the dyno.
Yeah, definetly don't do this.
Running with no spring is the best option, although I reccomend just getting the engine tuned/broken in on the dyno.
10-06-2008, 05:41 PM
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I may be completely wrong here, but it looks like the return line is not facing directly downwards? Looks to be aiming towards the block. Maybe just the angle of the pictures?
10-06-2008, 05:45 PM
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Re: (phatrick2332)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatrick2332 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I may be completely wrong here, but it looks like the return line is not facing directly downwards? Looks to be aiming towards the block. Maybe just the angle of the pictures?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's fine.
BTW, the oil from the pressure sensor port is filtered. Don't worry about the inline filter.
What size restrictor are you running?
It's fine.
BTW, the oil from the pressure sensor port is filtered. Don't worry about the inline filter.
What size restrictor are you running?
10-06-2008, 06:36 PM
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Re: (*Boostwerks*)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatrick2332 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I may be completely wrong here, but it looks like the return line is not facing directly downwards? Looks to be aiming towards the block. Maybe just the angle of the pictures?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought that as well, but I'm pretty sure he's using the 45º on the return flange as it's included in the kit.
I would switch to a -3AN line, use a .035" restrictor. Did you prime the turbo?
To answer your question regarding no boost during break-in, idealistically the car should be be tuned on initial start-up. Nonetheless, if you wanted to break-in with no boost you could also just stay out of boost and keep it ligh part-throttle.
I thought that as well, but I'm pretty sure he's using the 45º on the return flange as it's included in the kit.
I would switch to a -3AN line, use a .035" restrictor. Did you prime the turbo?
To answer your question regarding no boost during break-in, idealistically the car should be be tuned on initial start-up. Nonetheless, if you wanted to break-in with no boost you could also just stay out of boost and keep it ligh part-throttle.
10-06-2008, 10:41 PM
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Re: (a1320addict)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by a1320addict »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I thought that as well, but I'm pretty sure he's using the 45º on the return flange as it's included in the kit.
I would switch to a -3AN line, use a .035" restrictor. Did you prime the turbo?
To answer your question regarding no boost during break-in, idealistically the car should be be tuned on initial start-up. Nonetheless, if you wanted to break-in with no boost you could also just stay out of boost and keep it ligh part-throttle.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I still have the -3AN with the .035" (the one that is supplied in the kit?), we changed to -4AN just to run the restrictor (only size restrictor we can find around here).
We didn't do any priming to the turbo,
I thought the oil from the block would go directly to it. Could that make a difference on oil spitting out into the downpipe?
Regarding the tune, the car hasn't seen any speeds over idle. We were going to street tune it for break in and we removed the spring just to be on the safe side when breaking it in. Soon as the engine would be broken in, we would then dyno tune it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by *Boostwerks* »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's fine.
BTW, the oil from the pressure sensor port is filtered. Don't worry about the inline filter.
What size restrictor are you running? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The inline filter is what Jesse recommended to me just to avoid any metal shavings from the block to go inside the turbo as he found a few pieces when I sent it to him.
By the way, Jesse at AFI =
And the AFI kit is beautiful, a nice piece of work!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatrick2332 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I may be completely wrong here, but it looks like the return line is not facing directly downwards? Looks to be aiming towards the block. Maybe just the angle of the pictures?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think it's the angle of the pictures, but for extra precautions we will shorten the line and add the 45 degree fitting on the pan.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hah you must have read my post about those -4an inline filters the DSM guys use them religiously.
anyways shortening your oil return may help because it does look like it may old a bit of oil, but it sound like you may have other problems. best beat is to just clean the engine and then dry it off, drive the car around and check for leaks </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think the engine is leaking anywhere, but I guess I should take a look, I'm not ruling any possibilities out for now.
Any other suggestions?
I will keep you guys updated and let you know if the problem persists or if it gets fixed after we try the things we have planned to do in order to get this problem resolved.
I thought that as well, but I'm pretty sure he's using the 45º on the return flange as it's included in the kit.
I would switch to a -3AN line, use a .035" restrictor. Did you prime the turbo?
To answer your question regarding no boost during break-in, idealistically the car should be be tuned on initial start-up. Nonetheless, if you wanted to break-in with no boost you could also just stay out of boost and keep it ligh part-throttle.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I still have the -3AN with the .035" (the one that is supplied in the kit?), we changed to -4AN just to run the restrictor (only size restrictor we can find around here).
We didn't do any priming to the turbo,
I thought the oil from the block would go directly to it. Could that make a difference on oil spitting out into the downpipe?Regarding the tune, the car hasn't seen any speeds over idle. We were going to street tune it for break in and we removed the spring just to be on the safe side when breaking it in. Soon as the engine would be broken in, we would then dyno tune it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by *Boostwerks* »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's fine.
BTW, the oil from the pressure sensor port is filtered. Don't worry about the inline filter.
What size restrictor are you running? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The inline filter is what Jesse recommended to me just to avoid any metal shavings from the block to go inside the turbo as he found a few pieces when I sent it to him.
By the way, Jesse at AFI =
And the AFI kit is beautiful, a nice piece of work!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatrick2332 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I may be completely wrong here, but it looks like the return line is not facing directly downwards? Looks to be aiming towards the block. Maybe just the angle of the pictures?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think it's the angle of the pictures, but for extra precautions we will shorten the line and add the 45 degree fitting on the pan.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hah you must have read my post about those -4an inline filters the DSM guys use them religiously.
anyways shortening your oil return may help because it does look like it may old a bit of oil, but it sound like you may have other problems. best beat is to just clean the engine and then dry it off, drive the car around and check for leaks </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think the engine is leaking anywhere, but I guess I should take a look, I'm not ruling any possibilities out for now.
Any other suggestions?
I will keep you guys updated and let you know if the problem persists or if it gets fixed after we try the things we have planned to do in order to get this problem resolved.
10-06-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: (R.A.T.)
prob way off base here, but what oil are u running?
when I was on dyno, my tuner told me I should run at least 10W-30 cause the really fine oils can push past the seals on the turbo
when I was on dyno, my tuner told me I should run at least 10W-30 cause the really fine oils can push past the seals on the turbo
10-07-2008, 04:55 AM
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Re: (JRSC01GS-R)
oh yeah! that's another thing. My new block is recommended to run 10W30, but the shop that is putting everything together put 5W30 accidently.
We said to drain it right away and put 10W30 but after discussing that it shouldn't be a problem, we took the descision to start it up with 5W30.
You think it could be something as simple as that?
We said to drain it right away and put 10W30 but after discussing that it shouldn't be a problem, we took the descision to start it up with 5W30.
You think it could be something as simple as that?
10-07-2008, 06:21 AM
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Re: (R.A.T.)
From what I understand the oil would only be 5w if it were at like 30*F. If it was at room temp it should be fine. And I thought white smoke was water? And black smoke is oil?
10-07-2008, 08:29 AM
#19
First off, I'd go back to the -3AN w/ .035" restrictor. I don't understand why you switched to a -4AN just to run an unknown sized restrictor.
I would also look into shortening the return line a bit so that has a more direct path the oil return line.
As for running it without boost, there are several methods of doing that, I simply disconnect an intercooler pipe at the intercooler and drive in vaccum as much as possible as to not overspin the turbo. The only time that "overspinning" becomes a risk is when you're at a high boost level, (say during a dyno run) and an IC pipe BLOWS off making a massive change in pressurization to the system. Simply running it with the IC pipe off does no damage. We've had many customers drive to the facility to tune that way for hundreds of miles.
Priming the turbo is a must, and really, you only have one chance to do that. Since you're running a GT35R, whether or not you primed was not nearly as important as the fact that you changed to a much larger feed line than needed using an unknown restrictor size.
I would also look into shortening the return line a bit so that has a more direct path the oil return line.
As for running it without boost, there are several methods of doing that, I simply disconnect an intercooler pipe at the intercooler and drive in vaccum as much as possible as to not overspin the turbo. The only time that "overspinning" becomes a risk is when you're at a high boost level, (say during a dyno run) and an IC pipe BLOWS off making a massive change in pressurization to the system. Simply running it with the IC pipe off does no damage. We've had many customers drive to the facility to tune that way for hundreds of miles.
Priming the turbo is a must, and really, you only have one chance to do that. Since you're running a GT35R, whether or not you primed was not nearly as important as the fact that you changed to a much larger feed line than needed using an unknown restrictor size.
10-07-2008, 09:00 AM
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Re: (TheShodan)
sorry sorry, I got the sizes wrong.
When I had the -3AN this is the fitting that was on it (similar to image):
And I changed to the -4AN line to run the restrictor on it:
When I had the -3AN this is the fitting that was on it (similar to image):
And I changed to the -4AN line to run the restrictor on it:
10-07-2008, 09:02 AM
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Re: (a1320addict)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by a1320addict »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have .035" restrictors here if need be, let me know if you need one.
As Mac said, you needed to prime the turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I definetly will prime it tonight soon as I receive it!
As Mac said, you needed to prime the turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I definetly will prime it tonight soon as I receive it!
10-07-2008, 09:09 AM
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Re: (R.A.T.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R.A.T. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh yeah! that's another thing. My new block is recommended to run 10W30, but the shop that is putting everything together put 5W30 accidently.
We said to drain it right away and put 10W30 but after discussing that it shouldn't be a problem, we took the descision to start it up with 5W30.
You think it could be something as simple as that?</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol it was fine. the #W is the WINTER rating for the oil NOT the weight. the very last number is the weight of the oil. usually if you live in a cold climate you want the W number to be 5W because it protects the engine up to-30*F weather, 10W protects the engine up to -20*F weather.
here read on http://www.valvoline.com/carca...601ov
We said to drain it right away and put 10W30 but after discussing that it shouldn't be a problem, we took the descision to start it up with 5W30.
You think it could be something as simple as that?</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol it was fine. the #W is the WINTER rating for the oil NOT the weight. the very last number is the weight of the oil. usually if you live in a cold climate you want the W number to be 5W because it protects the engine up to-30*F weather, 10W protects the engine up to -20*F weather.
here read on http://www.valvoline.com/carca...601ov