007EG

Gonna be in the market for a turbo setup soon. Im looking to find everyones exact setup including headwork, what turbo specs, manifold, wastegate, etc. And if you have any boost creep. I previously had a problem and searched and also have seen a lot of others have creep issues.Trying to avoid buying a 60mm gate or dual 44s or something ridiculous. I just want a manifold setup that has good wastegate placement and actually works without a crazy gate setup or using a .2 bar spring when i really wanna run 1 bar. So I wanna see what your running and if you are or are not having boost issues.

TIA

RCautoworks

How many pounds are you going to run ? If set up properly a manifold should not boost creep. We run our manifolds and never have creep issues.

PHDZINE

There are more variables to boost creep than the manifold design that would also include turbo size, turbine housing A/R, wastegate size, boost controller, ETC.

tony1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RCautoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many pounds are you going to run ? If set up properly a manifold should not boost creep. We run our manifolds and never have creep issues. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You have never run with a very efficient setup then. Full Race top mount manifolds are very well designed and when the turbo is big enough, there's no way in hell a single 44mm gate will keep the boost under control. It has to do with having very low exhaust backpressure and the air not making the turn into the wastegate due to a small pressure differential between the turbine and wg inlet. Stick a small turbo on any manifold and it shouldn't creep.

The original poster's question needs to have more info about the engine and turbo setup being used and target boost levels.

0morgan@synapse motorsport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You have never run with a very efficient setup then. Full Race top mount manifolds are very well designed and when the turbo is big enough, there's no way in hell a single 44mm gate will keep the boost under control. It has to do with having very low exhaust backpressure and the air not making the turn into the wastegate due to a small pressure differential between the turbine and wg inlet. Stick a small turbo on any manifold and it shouldn't creep.

The original poster's question needs to have more info about the engine and turbo setup being used and target boost levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ive seen this time and time again on my car, 3 different manifolds proven to control boost well, and 2 different turbos. still cant avoid a decent amount of creep. manifold design is important but there are many other factors.

tell us more about your motor 007eg, depending on motor setup a single 44mm might not cut no matter what manifold you use.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Why rely on pressure difference to route excess exhaust when you can have wg priority in the manifold design?

quicksilver1689

you see it alot when people run "large" turbos at relatively low boost, the wastegate has to vent alot of air and sometimes a single gate isnt physically able to keep boost pressure steady because it just cant get the air out fast enough to keep things consistent

Boner_Ben

InlinePro log manifold here with a single turbosmart 48mm progate and 0 creep issues. I have ran as low as 10 psi rock steady to redline.

RCautoworks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The original poster's question needs to have more info about the engine and turbo setup being used and target boost levels.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly, and from the sounds of it he is probably running a cast iron manifold that has creeping issues. It sounds like his problem was an issue more with the placement of the waste gate.

tony1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why rely on pressure difference to route excess exhaust when you can have wg priority in the manifold design?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because in my opinion wg priority will sacrifice a little power by making the air turn before it enters the turbine. If you can optimize the collector entry into the turbine and make up for wg inefficiencies with a bigger or dual wastegates, then i think that is a better option.

Depends on the application, for most street setups wg priority would be more than sufficient, but the fact of the matter is, that's not what's available for the most part.

007EG

This was the setup on an old car that i'm trying to avoid on my new one.

83mm 9:1 B-series
3" dp / test pipe / 3" exhaust

Sc61 / stage 5 wheel / .63a/r

Full-Race Ramhorn Manifold with 44mm wastegate with a .9bar spring. It would go all the way up to 17 and 18psi .

This problem was just on spring with no boost controller. System was checked for leaks and any other problem. I'm really just thinking it was wastegate placement. I mean the wastegate was sitting at a 90 degree angle. Of course the flow is going to follow the path or least resistance, which is personally why i think i had the creep.


Which is why i'm looking for a setup that wont have this problem. It almost looks like my only choice is dual 44s of a single 60mm if I want to run a good equal length manifold.

0morgan@synapse motorsport

headwork?

007EG

Yes, fully worked head. p&p, 5-angle,1mm oversized valves, springs,retainers, etc. We've talked before mike, and i really dont think its the head. I'm still thinking wastegate placement. Just looking for setups that dont cause creep. Or if my only option is dual gates or a single 60mm.

96 GSR-T

I run an EL with a Tial 44mm and a T67HO, on the 1 bar spring I creep to 20psi by 7k or so, ported head oversize valves also, also creeps from 21psi to about 23.5 psi on the high boost setting that can be seen in the video in my Sig.


Modified by 96 GSR-T at 9:12 PM 12/12/2007

0morgan@synapse motorsport

so that makes 3 of us in this thread alone with creep issues, all of us have ported heads/oversized valves. any one else want to chime in here?

i know every manifold ive used has had 0 boost creep issues on every other motor. my current manifold held 9psi on my buddies car but cant stay under 16 for me. this is just my assumption, but the headwork is the only thing that makes my motor different than the other cars they have been used on.

Turbo-charged

everythings flowing better with the ported head.

ben the reason you have no creep with your inline manifold is that its not flowing nearly as well as a tubular.

call me crazy......but i think the full-race twin gate manifolds have been proven time and time and time and time again........ it takes a lot of the guess work out of the equation. you know your buying a manifold that wont break, flows great, and doesnt have boost creep.

i had to add a 2nd wastgate to a customers supra. with 1 wastegate and a 20psi spring.....boost would not go below 45psi lol. 2nd wastegate 20psi spring held about 23psi. 91mm turbo

tony1

Think about it. What does a ported head do? It flows more air, which means boost goes down. You make more power at less "boost". Remember, "boost" is only a measure of restriction on the intake side. So technically, a stock head at 8psi has less mass of air coming out of it than a good ported head with good cams at 8psi. More exhaust means you need more wastegate.

nowtype

It's clear why ramhorn type manifolds do a poor job regulating boost pressure with a single 44mm WG when you have a turbo with a big turbine wheel. Pressure differential. Outside vs inside pressure is not enough to really draw a lot of air out of the WG thus the reason you need to double the WG area to get the job done. The WG can flow the cfms to do the job, it just doesn't get a chance to because air flow doesn't want to go through. Basic options to solve a problem like this is add another WG or redesign to allow WG priority. WG priority on a Honda doesn't work that well. Too many issues with getting it to work well within the chassis. I will admit, I think buying another $350 WG is a kind of expensive solution considering you are already dropping $1200 on the manifold.

Also, I don't see how the ported head issue even matters. More air will just increase the pressure in the exhaust manifold more easily. Air velocity may increase, I'm not sure, but even so, I'd see the WG working better with a ported head vs not.

It would be nice if someone modeled this in Solid Works and showed how and why this works.

blinx9900

meutek manifold
meutek wg neck
tial 38mm wg
t3t04e ball bearing at 15psi

317whp on 91octane ZERO boost creep, ive run this setup at 25psi just to see what would happen and still NO boost creep.

96 GSR-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">meutek manifold
meutek wg neck
tial 38mm wg
t3t04e ball bearing at 15psi

317whp on 91octane ZERO boost creep, ive run this setup at 25psi just to see what would happen and still NO boost creep.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

not suprised because it shouldnt creep, its a wimpy weak turbo with a small turbine section.

0morgan@synapse motorsport

i think most people here realize the physics of it all makes sense. more air in and out of the head means more exhaust which means more WG needed like tony said.
I just think it plays a much larger role than people tend to give it credit for. most people are quick to blame WG placement.

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think most people here realize the physics of it all makes sense. more air in and out of the head means more exhaust which means more WG needed like tony said.
I just think it plays a much larger role than people tend to give it credit for. most people are quick to blame WG placement. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This isn't accurate at all. Why can a 44mm WG regulate boost at 30psi on a log manifold but not at 10psi with a 44mm WG on a ramhorn manifold? 30psi on the log manifold is going to make more power thus meaning more exhaust by product. So shouldn't that be when the WG flow becomes an issue?

It's clear you really don't understand the physics behind this. It has to do with the pressure at the inlet and outlet of the WG not being high enough to really draw the air out of the manifold. Ported head would make the WG more effective. Not less effective.

This has everything to do with WG location and dynamics within the exhaust manifold. Again someone with Solid Works and time could illustrate this pretty easily using Cosmos.

007EG

Well in the end, the main problem is the wastegate placement. Rushing air doesnt want to make a 70-90 degree turn. But the reason the placement isnt better and the reason these companies decided to put the wastegate where they did is b/c then the manifold is more efficient. So instead of there being a happy medium we just have to add another wastegate to get as much air out at once with the 2 gates.


Bottom line....If you want a equal length manifold and a big turbo on lower boost levels.... RUN 2 Wastegates. Thats the only possible conclusion.


Now does it matter if its dual 44s or dual 38s ?? Your talking a total outlet of 76mm vs 88mm . And about $480 vs $800 in wastegates.

tony1

Yeah, log manifolds will never creep because there's so much turbulance right near the wastegate entry that you're not asking the airflow to change directions to enter the gate. Taking laminar airflow and asking it to go from a low pressure path and make a 90 deg turn into a slightly lower pressure area is the problem.

tony1

Dual 38's should work fine for just about any application, just make sure you get the upgraded valves from TiAL if you're going to run leaded fuel. Most people go with the 44mm for the v band more than anything. Really makes things easier for the fabricator of both the manifold and the dumptubes because everything can be rotated.