What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp? - Honda-Tech


What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Old 12-02-2016, 05:46 AM   #1
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Default What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

I have been toying with the idea of building a built turbo honda.

I started with the idea of a ls vtec turbo, then went g23, now am looking at b16.

A turbo b16 ----To do 300-400 I know stock internals would be at their limit or just over, fine I have no problem with forged internals.
What about going to something much higher like 800 hp?
Sleeved block, forged rods and pistons, stock crank? Good cams, a/m intake, huge turbo and corresponding injectors plus all the small bits.
And a good tune or better yet a great tune.

Is that all?

Yes, the rest of the drive train must be built up as well.... just focusing on the motor at the moment
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:48 AM   #2
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

yea thats pretty much it... lol
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:52 AM   #3
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

well you need to ask yourself why 800hp? its not gonna do anything for you on the street unless this car is used for drag racing only then I could understand
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Old 12-02-2016, 11:00 AM   #4
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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well you need to ask yourself why 800hp? its not gonna do anything for you on the street unless this car is used for drag racing only then I could understand
This is a good point. What will the car be used for? If you're just spinning tires until the top of 4th gear it's pointless to have all that power anyway, just running the engine harder for no reason and increasing lag. If you're planning on running slicks at the strip it's a different story of course.

But yeah, biggest difference will really just be sleeves. In either case, the valvetrain should be upgraded.

You could even keep stock cams as far as longevity is concerned, but I'm sure you'd make a lot more/better power with some appropriate aftermarket. The stock crank can be used at any power level, to my knowledge all Honda crankshafts are forged steel from the factory and perform great.

"Knife edged" forged aftermarket cranks actually aren't recommended for street driving, something about how they jump RPM too quickly or just have a really harsh ramp (fact check needed on this, don't remember the exact issues).
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Old 12-02-2016, 11:58 AM   #5
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

last I checked OEM cranks were working fine in 1000HP+ builds really no reason to use anything other then OEM
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Old 12-02-2016, 04:19 PM   #6
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

now im only at 500 hp but on the same oem crank for a looong time almost 10 years now.

i think any sleeved piston and rod motor good for 400 hp will also work at 800 hp. the head will probably have aftermarket springs/retainers but stock valves and oem cams like itr will likely work (but probably not optimal).for power between 400-800 its the clutch, improved drivetrain and fuel system that will need to be upgraded from 400-800 hp.

these guys said it right though, 800 hp and roasting 4th gear isnt fun on the street. in any given civic or integra a nice 350-400 whp is great for the street. you can catch traction, its not super stressful on the whole drivetrain and will likely trap in the 120 mph range which is enough to roll out on a lot of cars on the street...
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:36 AM   #7
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

okay well thank you.

I bought some parts from the classifieds here and will starting this build over christmas time, assuming all parts arrive in "as claimed" condition.
Block is b16- sleeved, will be dropping it off at my machine shop as soon as i get it, maybe the holes are good enough and do not need to be bored, maybe they do. It will be decked for sure, the owner says it should be done regardless.

Since I do not have pistons yet, I will see what my machinist says to do on the bores.

I also purchased a turbo and plan on rebuilding it and upgrading if possible.

I hope to be somewhere between 400 - 800 hp when all is said and done.
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Old 12-05-2016, 02:05 AM   #8
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

For much more over 400 I wouldn´t bother with a b16. There are so many benefits going b18. That is my biggest mistake sticking to a b16. Sleeved b18 and LS crank means so much more down low. Spool, response, recovery and overall more power and driveabilety.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:07 AM   #9
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

There's a little more to it though. Forged internals that work at 400 - 500 whp will most likely fail at 800 whp. The clearances you run at 400whp vs 800whp are also different (piston to wall, bearing, rings)

Here are some of the main points to look at:

Wrist pins - HD required
Piston forging - HD version needed on some manufacturers
Headstuds - L19 or CA625 vs normal
Crank damper - ATI or Fluidampr vs OEM
Rod bolts - L19 or CA625 vs normal
Rods - I-beam or X-beam usually vs H-beam

On the B16 point, there are people that have made ~800 on B16's but they require a lot of rpm to get there and are usually gutless below 6000 rpm. As The Sweed said, the added stroke and displacement of the B18 or 2.0 litre setups makes for an overall faster and easier-to-drive fast car
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:18 AM   #10
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Well crap... I guess then really I will be making a 400 hp motor when all is said and done.

Oh well, it should be more fun on the street.
It's a shame that the little b16 with a near perfect r/s ratio isn't going to be a monster, I had originally hoped to keep rpms down to add longevity to the motor... but with good internals and small displacement I guess I will really be relying on high rpms to make power.
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:59 AM   #11
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Default re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Originally Posted by 93h2beg View Post
Well crap... I guess then really I will be making a 400 hp motor when all is said and done.

Oh well, it should be more fun on the street.
It's a shame that the little b16 with a near perfect r/s ratio isn't going to be a monster, I had originally hoped to keep rpms down to add longevity to the motor... but with good internals and small displacement I guess I will really be relying on high rpms to make power.
Correct. But as mentioned before, the R/S ratio is just an optimal number and nothing to sweat about at all. B16s NEED Rpms to gain torque. WIth the right equipment and proper installation, "RPMS" shouldn't limit longevity with the engine unless the driver makes an error.
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Correct. But as mentioned before, the R/S ratio is just an optimal number and nothing to sweat about at all. B16s NEED Rpms to gain torque. WIth the right equipment and proper installation, "RPMS" shouldn't limit longevity with the engine unless the driver makes an error.
Can add a block girdle too which may help hold things tight at high RPM. The R/S ratio on the B16 already makes them a bit more rev-happy than LS/B20 blocks, but the girdle would probably be added insurance.

Can you add an OEM girdle on a B16? What about a Z10? I can't really remember what blocks from the factory came with them besides the B18C*. I know the B18A/B didn't.
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Can add a block girdle too which may help hold things tight at high RPM. The R/S ratio on the B16 already makes them a bit more rev-happy than LS/B20 blocks, but the girdle would probably be added insurance.

Can you add an OEM girdle on a B16? What about a Z10? I can't really remember what blocks from the factory came with them besides the B18C*. I know the B18A/B didn't.
Block girdles are cool for over 10,000rpms. Otherwise, as you said, just insurance.

VTEC B-series engines had Block girdles. Non-VTEC engines did not. simple.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Any suggestions for an exhaust manifold? I was thinking something cheap and cast, with a center attachment for the waste gate, not like the drag cast setups that have it on one exhaust port.
I can't imagine how only allowing it to release pressure on only one port is efficient. Since this isn't a monster, would I be limiting myself with a cast manifold?
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Any suggestions for an exhaust manifold? I was thinking something cheap and cast, with a center attachment for the waste gate, not like the drag cast setups that have it on one exhaust port.
I can't imagine how only allowing it to release pressure on only one port is efficient. Since this isn't a monster, would I be limiting myself with a cast manifold?
You really need to decide on a power goal and budget and then pick parts accordingly. Also consider if you will want to upgrade to more power at a later stage and be realistic with yourself.

Cast manifolds are the the cheap and easy way to turbocharge a car, but they sacrifice performance in favour of cost and ease. The general consensus is that a mini-ram style manifold is a much better option than the log, as the runner lengths are better matched and wastegate flow is far superior to the "stuck on one end" log manifolds.

Something like these
GO-AUTOWORKS RR A/C Turbo Kit 250-600hp Civic Integra D16 B16 B18 B20
GO-AUTOWORKS Turbo Kits Honda Civic Acura Integra H22 F20B D16 B16 B18
https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...ries+engine%29
https://sheepeybuilt.com/products/sh...iant=253571055

Pick a reputable brand turbo with at least ~45 lb/min flow and you'll have a solid foundation, Garrett GTX2867R/GT30/old school Garrett T3/T04E 50 trim/Turbonetics T-GA 5454/Borg Warner S200SX etc will all deliver the goods.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Originally Posted by extremeracer View Post
You really need to decide on a power goal and budget and then pick parts accordingly. Also consider if you will want to upgrade to more power at a later stage and be realistic with yourself.

Cast manifolds are the the cheap and easy way to turbocharge a car, but they sacrifice performance in favour of cost and ease. The general consensus is that a mini-ram style manifold is a much better option than the log, as the runner lengths are better matched and wastegate flow is far superior to the "stuck on one end" log manifolds.

Something like these
GO-AUTOWORKS RR A/C Turbo Kit 250-600hp Civic Integra D16 B16 B18 B20
GO-AUTOWORKS Turbo Kits Honda Civic Acura Integra H22 F20B D16 B16 B18
https://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=12618&cat_key=2496&prodname=DOC+Ra ce+Bottom+Mount+Manifold+-+B+Series+Mini+Ram+T3+%2892-97+Honda+Civic+del+Sol+B+Series+engine%29
https://sheepeybuilt.com/products/sh...iant=253571055

Pick a reputable brand turbo with at least ~45 lb/min flow and you'll have a solid foundation, Garrett GTX2867R/GT30/old school Garrett T3/T04E 50 trim/Turbonetics T-GA 5454/Borg Warner S200SX etc will all deliver the goods.

X2 Get a goal in mind before you start buying parts, 800hp is pointless if your car sees time on the street anyway. I would suggest going with go auto kits unless you have the experience/tools to fabricate things like downpipe and charge piping

i.e a manifold/turbo that works well for a 800hp drag car, leaves much to be desired on a 400hp street/ occasional race car
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

I see I have not mentioned in recently purchased a turbo. It was listed here on the forums, the t3/ gt40 "blowzilla".
I am looking at acquiring a victor X intake manifold, and semi built b16 head.

As far as fabricating down pipes etc... I am an okay welder, and have both MIG and TIG at my house aling with chop saws, band saws, drill press and so on.

At 400 hp will it matter what exhaust manifold I run?
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

its probably the second most important item, with turbo being the first. just dont go top mount whatever you do. mini ram would be the best option
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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At 400 hp will it matter what exhaust manifold I run?
Yes. Like any other part of the build, it matters. The transition between 400whp & 800whp can be large depending upon what's being done to the rest of the car, even outside of the engine.

Here's a little blurb on the purpose of each major type of exhaust manifold and what each of them have a purpose for. A car making 400whp is going to have a different purpose than the same car attempting to do 800whp.
This is found in the Forced Induction FAQs at the top of the main page.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced...mount-2152865/
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Well I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this.... this head has had some issues In a previous life. I am thinking in a turbo motor I need to stay away from all of these potential hot spots. I have 2 vtec b series heads, but the cam caps have been thrown out, so i need to buy a new head.
this is a head on Craigslist. It has super tech parts, but has dome damage to one cylinder. Am I correct in thinking this is not a good fit for a fi engine?
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Well I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this.... this head has had some issues In a previous life. I am thinking in a turbo motor I need to stay away from all of these potential hot spots. I have 2 vtec b series heads, but the cam caps have been thrown out, so i need to buy a new head.
this is a head on Craigslist. It has super tech parts, but has dome damage to one cylinder. Am I correct in thinking this is not a good fit for a fi engine?
Don't risk it. You're buying a problem. Getting "Supertech everything" means nothing if the thing leaks and drops a valve..... I know you don't want to pay what values are on the H-T Marketplace, but really, you have a better shot at getting a better unit on the classifieds than some CL ad.

Buy once, cry once.

Don't worry about the Victor X manifold, a Performer X is a much better street performer. That turbine wheel on your "Blowzilla" is the same as what a T3/T04E 50 trim is capable of. You'll make more peak power than that, of course, but not by a whole helluva a lot.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:15 AM   #22
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

That's what I was thinking.
I'll pass on that head. But the thing is I can get the intake for about 150. He also has nib cp pistons 9-1 for a good price.

I'd happily pay a fair price for a fair head. Just haven't seen any on the classifieds.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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That's what I was thinking.
I'll pass on that head. But the thing is I can get the intake for about 150. He also has nib cp pistons 9-1 for a good price.

I'd happily pay a fair price for a fair head. Just haven't seen any on the classifieds.

You get the correct components for the need.. I understand the fact that everyone wants a "bro-deal", and we're not all made of money, but you'll be unhappier now with the wrong intake manifold, because of the "deal" once you put it all together.
If you start basing everything on the "deal", you're going to have a MUTT project, you're going to be paying more for, just to get it right.

Not worth the "deal" unless you're going closer to 800hp.. There will be other "deals".. won't be the end of the world if you don't get this one "RIGHT NOW"...
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

I think youd be happier with a stock IM at this power level, if upgrading look for a performer x, skunk 2 pro, or skunk 2 ultra STREET at the largest
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Old 12-07-2016, 05:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Awesome, thank you guys.

I will NOT get the victor then.
But please enlighten me so I may no longer be ignorant, Edelbrock claims this intake is perfect for turbo engines. 7000-10,000 rpms. Is this not where i will have to be taking this engine to make power? Just trying to understand how this will hurt me.

ALSO, what about piston compression??? Is 9 to 1 to low for a e85 engine? Should I be looking for 10-1?
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