RICE POLICE SIP

iTrader: (2)

I'm doing a vitara build and I'm trying to decide on which rods to get. I'm going with the 75mm YCP pistons but from every post i've read so far, the block has to get notched. I know that there has to be a rod set out there where notching isn't needed... can anyone help me out? Thanks

Shane

quicksilver1689

your best bet will be some low profile I-beams, search around. I believe that all if not most h-beams for a d-series will require notching due to the nature of there profile/size.

RICE POLICE SIP

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your best bet will be some low profile I-beams, search around. I believe that all if not most h-beams for a d-series will require notching due to the nature of there profile/size. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah that's what i'm thinking but there has GOT to be a brand out there that doesn't require any notching. Why would they make it if you have to always notch the block. I'll keep searching though.. thanks

youdontneed2cams

Have you considered the new fjt i-beams? they do not require notching and are meant for forced induction applications, which I am assuming is what you have.

nowtype

First of all, get 75.5mm pistons so the pistons fit better. 75mm pistons are a bit too small for stock Honda bore. As for rods, do yourself a favor and get a set of Eagle rods and spend 30 minutes and notch your block. There is no reason not to.

RICE POLICE SIP

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">First of all, get 75.5mm pistons so the pistons fit better. 75mm pistons are a bit too small for stock Honda bore. As for rods, do yourself a favor and get a set of Eagle rods and spend 30 minutes and notch your block. There is no reason not to.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So if I go w/ the 75.5mm pistons then i'll have to bore the sleeves. I didn't want to bore them just yet. And if I do bore them do I need to take the pistons to the machine shop and have them bore them to each piston? And you're telling me that people notch the block themselves?

I thought people are running 75mm pistons w/o any problems??? And what's wrong w/ any other rods other then Eagle???

nowtype

If you go with 75.5mm pistons you will need to bore and hone your cylinders to roughly 75.5mm. 75mm Vitara pistons are slightly smaller than OEM pistons. Thus causes more piston slap than OEM pistons. Most people don't care much and overall, it's not a big deal but still you are sticking too small of pistons into your cylinders. Since 75.5mm pistons are available, I suggest spending a little extra and getting bored and honed so the piston to wall clearances are more appropriate. This isn't necessary, but is far from a terrible idea.

As for notching your block, yes people do this themselves. It takes next to no time with a die grinder and a carbide bit but less than an hour with a drill/dremel and a strong stone. As for using Eagles over other brands, the difference in price is generally less than $50. For that amount of money, I'd go with a proven brand. Connecting rods aren't the most complex part of an engine, but they need to be strong and machined properly. In this case $50 is cheap insurance.

phatrick2332

The eagles are the same rods that are branded by scat and tuner toys, if you dont have a problem with notching the block, find the cheapest of those companies. Also, make sure they come with the arp bolts.

RICE POLICE SIP

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatrick2332 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The eagles are the same rods that are branded by scat and tuner toys, if you dont have a problem with notching the block, find the cheapest of those companies. Also, make sure they come with the arp bolts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the thing that I was trying to avoid (notching the block)

ryan89crx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE POLICE SIP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's the thing that I was trying to avoid (notching the block)</TD></TR></TABLE>why are people so afraid of notching the block? its a very simple procedure...

RICE POLICE SIP

iTrader: (2)

it's not that i'm afraid... I just didn't want to if I didn't HAVE TO... This is my first D series build. I've built B's and never had to notch anything....

CoreyR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE POLICE SIP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it's not that i'm afraid... I just didn't want to if I didn't HAVE TO... This is my first D series build. I've built B's and never had to notch anything....</TD></TR></TABLE>

like everyone already stated it doesnt matter what BRAND H beams you get they ALL need to be notched. if your going to be stubborn then your only options are an I beam like the FJT ones someone already stated. end of story.

HiProfile

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE POLICE SIP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've built B's and never had to notch anything....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Show me a stock b-series crank with a longer stroke than a D16 and I'll give you a free turbo. The fact is all b18/b20 motors have a shorter stroke, greater deck height, longer rods, as well as more crankcase volume than a D16. That means the rod swings out and creates a greater rod angle on a D16, requiring more room for a rod.

Notching is easy, can be done w/o removing the motor (someone has done it), and does not take away any needed strength. But if you insist, your non-notching option will be at least $50 more. I notched my blocks with a $11 air grinder and a $5 carbide grinding set (Harbor Freight crap).

mekkis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE POLICE SIP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's the thing that I was trying to avoid (notching the block)</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're also trying to avoid having a freshly honed and correctly clearanced bore by not going 75.5mm. You are aware that Vitaras are .004" undersized compared to Honda pistons, add in the factory piston to wall clearance and the amount of material worn off your bore over the 8-20 years your D16 block has been in use and welcome to piston slap.

Man up and stop being afraid of doing things correctly, especially when the price difference is $50 and it takes 15 minutes.

nonvtecD

Vitaras definitely slap, that's no lie.

mekkis

Correction, going past .0035" piston to wall causes any cast piston to slap in a D16 bore.

nowtype

The end result is, can you run 75mm Vitara's with success? Absolutely. Is it a better idea to run 75.5mm Vitara pistons and bore the block properly? Absolutely. The problem is 75.5mm pistons + machining are just about the same cost of SRP 75mm pistons which are simply better than cast pistons and since they expand a little bit more than your typical forged piston, they would probably be happier with the slightly sloppier clearances due to engine wear.

As for the pistons, I still say $300 for Eagles is a better choice than $250-275 for FJ or TT rods. I like saving money as much as the next guy, but I'm not pinching a penny on this one. I'll buy a no name BOV and intercooler instead and weld up my own downpipe, dumptube, and IC piping instead to save some cash.

mekkis

Well, that buys the SRPs but it doesn't buy the machining that still needs to be done to the block. Also, SRP expand *less* than your typical forged piston, so I guarantee an 8-20 year old bore is still out of spec and now you're out a grip of money in a build that won't last as long between incorrect clearances and a forging scraping the cylinder walls away.

How many TT rods have you seen or even heard of failing? Let me guess... none. Little secret here, last time I had a problem with something TT carried I called Craig Corbin and explained the problem, the part I had an issue with was off the website within 30 minutes, and the customer had a free next day aired replacement. Some of their stuff is budget, sure, but they are an awesome company that doesn't sell junk.

gettin it

Notch the block man. Really easy bro. And im not sure, but i think i heard people using ls rods in a d series block. But then the rods needed to get machined. Not sure tho. And for pistions, you could stay with the 75mm bore, but you will have piston slap. Its all up too you.

mekkis

By the time you get the LS rods thinned and bushed for the smaller wristpin it costs as much as TT rods. I have LS/A6 combo in my beater, with GX pistons so I didn't need to bush them, but the rods and machining were free. I like the combo, but it's not all that for what it costs people to pull off.

95delsolz6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you go with 75.5mm pistons you will need to bore and hone your cylinders to roughly 75.5mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So if you are saying you can use the 75mm pistons, but should really bore and hone your cylinders, then why not use 76mm pistons?

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mekkis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, that buys the SRPs but it doesn't buy the machining that still needs to be done to the block. Also, SRP expand *less* than your typical forged piston, so I guarantee an 8-20 year old bore is still out of spec and now you're out a grip of money in a build that won't last as long between incorrect clearances and a forging scraping the cylinder walls away.

How many TT rods have you seen or even heard of failing? Let me guess... none. Little secret here, last time I had a problem with something TT carried I called Craig Corbin and explained the problem, the part I had an issue with was off the website within 30 minutes, and the customer had a free next day aired replacement. Some of their stuff is budget, sure, but they are an awesome company that doesn't sell junk. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You're right about the SRP pistons. Someone once told me they expanded more and for whatever reason whenever I think of SRPs I think they expand more because of the silicone even though I know better somewhere in this empty shell of a head.

As for TT rod failure, I change your point with another. Didn't TT rods have issues at their introduction? Isn't there a rare occassion where the rods need to be shaved to fit/make proper weight? Also how many rods have been sold? How many of their rods have made it into an engine vs getting swapped around HMT's classifieds? Then how many of their rods got stuck into Vitara D-series builds that never saw more than 250whp? I like Craig. I think he is a good guy. Rods are simple and anyone with a decent head should be able to come up with a simple working design. This all said, I still maintain my point that $25-50 for Eagle rods is where I'd splurge a little bit.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95delsolz6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So if you are saying you can use the 75mm pistons, but should really bore and hone your cylinders, then why not use 76mm pistons?</TD></TR></TABLE>

76mm is really pushing stock sleeves. .5mm overbore is generally accepted as still giving the sleeves plenty of structural integrity. 75.5mm allows a small overbore to get really tight tolerances and make sure everything is fresh and clean while still allowing the sleeves to be very strong.

katoeh2o

does eagle not make the TT rods?

And the new I beam rods offered by fjt are slightly longer to correct the fact that vitara pistons sit below the deck hight.

So you will get a better comp ratio

Acorrding to there web site they will be avalible may 31st. I am looking in to these. No block notching would be a plus if that is the case.

youdontneed2cams

The rods have actually been available to order for a week or two. the first sets have already been recieved.

http://turbod16.com/viewtopic....t=fjt

that is the link to the thread,

and you are correct the put the piston about .002 from deck height.

The standard Eagle/TunerToys/Stock rod and vitara compression is around 7.8:1

The compression ratio of the custom length fjt rods is about 8.8:1 so you get back alot of the compression lost with vitara set ups.

mekkis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As for TT rod failure, I change your point with another. Didn't TT rods have issues at their introduction? Isn't there a rare occassion where the rods need to be shaved to fit/make proper weight? Also how many rods have been sold? How many of their rods have made it into an engine vs getting swapped around HMT's classifieds? Then how many of their rods got stuck into Vitara D-series builds that never saw more than 250whp? I like Craig. I think he is a good guy. Rods are simple and anyone with a decent head should be able to come up with a simple working design. This all said, I still maintain my point that $25-50 for Eagle rods is where I'd splurge a little bit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've run TT rods on four cars over the last two years, taken the H22 ones to 8500 rpms and 375 whp, zero failures. Of the Vitara-equipped cars making 350+, off the top of my head, half run TT the other half run Eagle/SCAT. Zero failures. Changing the subject does not change my original point - TT is a good niche company with good niche products.

China makes the rough forging that becomes Eagle, Crower Econo, SCAT, TT, Legend, etc. Boo hoo if your finish machining isn't up to par with a more expensive rod as they are still stout as hell and the machine shop charges just as much to balance them as they do a higher end rod.

youdontneed2cams, I'd rather have 7.8:1 CR than 8.8:1 CR in a 75mm bore engine.