turbodohcsi

ok, well i started to pull my motor apart after it started ticking followed quickly by chaos. well what i discovered was that the head of the valve was shoved sideways up into the port and that the valve seat came falling out of the intake manifold in pieces. well at this point i stopped working because i wanted to get a camera and take pictures as i went.

Ok now for the questions... what would make a valve seat come out of the head, those things are suppose to be pressed in there, why would it come out?

Why would the seat come out on my head when other motors have dropped the valves and still kept the seats in place?

Are the seats suppose to stick in past the port? like if you look down in other ports you can tell where the seats are not flush with the port but are actually closing some of the port off because like a moon cresent of seat is hanging past the port.

Is this a machining era in which should be covered by the shop who did all machining and all assembly of the head.

If this was a piston to valve clearance issue then there should be notable marks on the pistons in or around the recessions, correct?

If it was a faulty part then shouldnt this of happened sooner (90 something miles)? parts include ferrea ss valves (the best ones), ferrea bronze valve guides (except for one), ferrea locks, ferrea seals, skunk2 pro springs and retainers, stock type r springs seats, and integra type r cams.

i was doing some reading on valve seat concentricity, to me it sounds like maybe when the seats got pressed in they got out of round causing the round valve to be smashed into an oval hole... but could someone explain this more, and where the era would come from?

And finally, WHY AND I STILL A FRICKIN NOOB?

turbodohcsi

damnit! where are all the techs at?

B18C Turbo

what did you expect? good questions like this one never get answered, but if you ask something like "whats the best intake manifold?!!?" there will be 10 replies in minutes.

Wish I knew the answer for you, but I don't see how that seat could come out, the only thing It could possible be is your keepers were not fully on and the retainer poppd off lets the spring assembly shoot out. Are you saying the seat dropped? Or did it pop upwards, if it dropped its a machining error obviously.

B18C Turbo

Also the seats are not "pressed in" they just sit in loose and are supposed to be held with the spring assembly and valve. If you take apart a used head you will notice after taking out the springs, you can pull the seat out with your fingers, or even spin it around like a coin on a table! Yeah, it shocked me too when I first saw.

N20civicB18

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C Turbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the seats are not "pressed in" they just sit in loose and are supposed to be held with the spring assembly and valve. If you take apart a used head you will notice after taking out the springs, you can pull the seat out with your fingers, or even spin it around like a coin on a table! Yeah, it shocked me too when I first saw.</TD></TR></TABLE>

huhh????

USDM 4G VTEC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C Turbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the seats are not "pressed in" they just sit in loose and are supposed to be held with the spring assembly and valve. If you take apart a used head you will notice after taking out the springs, you can pull the seat out with your fingers, or even spin it around like a coin on a table! Yeah, it shocked me too when I first saw.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats not the valve seat


valve seat is the stainless steel ring on the combustion chamber that creates a seal when the valve is against it
its what shops cut the 3 angle valve jobs on in case you didnt know

turbodohcsi

yes, the actual valve seat fell out, and i think your talking about the spring seat. but im sure the keepers didnt come out because the valve stems are still being held up by the keepers and retainers.

Flashmn

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the seats are not "pressed in" they just sit in loose and are supposed to be held with the spring assembly and valve. If you take apart a used head you will notice after taking out the springs, you can pull the seat out with your fingers, or even spin it around like a coin on a table! Yeah, it shocked me too when I first saw.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Eeek, if that was to happen, I'd ditch the head right there and then.
Valve seats are installed so that theres a certain diameter circle counterbored into the head and a valve seat is taken which has a certain diameter so that they have slight interference with the hole in the head.
Then the head is heated up and the seat ring is thrown into a freezer, the hole in the head expands and the ring contracts. Now they take the head out of the oven and the ring from the freezer and with one quick push its installed.
When the head cools down and the ring heats up, the interference measurement will lock the two into place. After which the seat angles are ground.

I'd say if the valve seat fell out, its either your cylinder temps rose too much or its shitty machining.

turbodohcsi

well the motor was professionally tuned and made 352hp at 10lbs with an ignition problem cutting my power short. not to mention the machine shop put these little nickel sized things that have a cent that melt out if the head gets over a certain temp "lets them know if they should do warranty work" and well mine didnt melt out, so i dont think it was getting hot.

Flashmn

might be that it was temp in the combustion chamber, not overall head.
But doesnt sound very professional if they made such shitty seats that they fell out.

turbodohcsi

well wouldnt of that still heated up the head.... i mean i could see where it wouldnt heat it up enough to melt that thing they put on there, but if the aluminum didnt get hot enough to melt that thing then it shouldnt of gotten hot enough to expand so far to let that seat out... ya know?

but me and the machine shop are debating on what caused it, and they want me to bring eveything up there, and they have already asked how much i thought it was going to take to repair everything..... so they may be going to fix their mistake. even though im not sure if id even want them to, i may have no choice.

turbodohcsi

i got pics!!!! Im going to entitle this little presentation as

"THEY LIFE OF A TURBO HONDA"


The Beggining:









The result at 10lbs and horrible ignition problems (no torque numbers due to ignition problems):



THE END OF ALL (yes the pics are blurry, but it is late, and im tired):





The rest look like this..... from what you can tell:



Notice the Stems Are Still Where They Belong:





Now The Other Half:

B18C Turbo

oh sorry I thought you said spring seat, sorry. Well, looks like a nice build, my only guess is a bad tune.

turbodohcsi

lol, 352 at 10lbs... i highly doubt bad tune. like i said the valve seat fell out, you can see where there is no longer a valve seat in the right intake port... just a valve head shoved there instead.

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

My guess would be that the valve broke first and head of the valve beat the seat out.

AllmotorEH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cruizinmax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My guess would be that the valve broke first and head of the valve beat the seat out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i agree with him but i feel your pain bro same thing just happened to me however mine was due to a retainer cracking on me. a little hairline crack on the bottom of the retainer caused the keepers to pull out and drop a valve from there on is history haha

JDMs1eeper

good luck man. I had a valve issue last year, it sucks


Modified by JDMs1eeper at 1:42 AM 8/3/2006

AspectIndustries

Yikes man. And when you thought your block is bullet proof. Sucks for something like this to happen.

Makes me wonder if I should build my motor or not. More parts = more problems, is how I see it.

Gl man.

Synapse

Man that looks painful.

Any chance you over revved it on a downshift? This is something you see alot on stock s2000's that drop into the wrong gear.

I tend to agree with someone that said that the valve probably broke first and knocked out the seat. If the seat was so badly toleranced, it would've come out pretty early on. How long did you have this motor together?

turbodohcsi

yeah, this particular head only had like 70 miles on it, if that. and the only thing about the head of the valve breaking first and beating the seat out.... shouldnt it of beat the other one out too?

hotimportcrx

That Sucks...it looks like the sleeve was spared from being destroyed but get a new head, new pistons, and bore it a little bit.

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodohcsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, this particular head only had like 70 miles on it, if that. and the only thing about the head of the valve breaking first and beating the seat out.... shouldnt it of beat the other one out too?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not nessicarily, the head of the valve is just flailing wildly around in the cylinder. There is no guarantees of what it will or wont do. Sorry for your loss. Just make it bigger and better next time.

Flashmn

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My guess would be that the valve broke first and head of the valve beat the seat out.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I second that.

turbodohcsi

yall are right about the valve breaking the seat. but it is still the shops era, but it was the guide, not the seat.... i will explain in a a little while.

turbodohcsi

Ok explanation: Basically what happened is... the machine shop installed the guides wrong, and installed one really really wrong, so this caused the guide to come loose and due to be being loose it would rub against the valve stem causing friction, so between the friction and the natural heat of a motor the valve ended up seizing in the guide. So now you basically have the guide and the valve moving as one and that caused the guide to sink a little bit, well on the next rotation when of the cam it pushed the guide even further down in there (remember the valve is still stuck in the open position inside the guide). So after the guide sunk far enough the piston came up and hit the valve and then it made pretty pretty little metal flakes that found a home all over my motor and even in my turbo.