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Old setup was a B18B with the same t3/t4 turbo didn't have any smoking issues and car ran fine. Didn't notice any oil leaks. The engine was using the stock oil pan tapped for turbo in about the same location I have now.
New setup is LS/VTEC but using the above manifold and I added the Moroso 4.4qt oil pan to make things easier with the drain being tapped and b/c it was baffled. My drain is 10an all the way from turbo to pain.
Precision SC44 turbo journal bearing
flanged 10an fitting from turbo drain port
90* 10an fitting to steel hose
steel hose to 45* fitting to oil pan
Finally got everything bolted up and started the car and I'm getting blue smoke from the exhaust when revving. I also noticed that oil is leaking on from the exhaust housing of the turbo which it wasn't before I changed the setup.
Do you all think this is from improper drainage from the turbo to the pan? My oil feed line is 3an no restriction. Do you all think that my seals are blown now? I have not driven the car yet and have not made boost on the new setup. I need to clear this up in order to schedule dyno tuning.
I have attached pictures of my drain back route and this is literally the only way I could get it to be decent. The mounting of the downpipe doesn't allow for another way and I still have to add my a/c compressor back in place. So I am some what limited with routing. I have also read that the moroso oil pan baffle causes oil to back up as well. Do I need to maybe drill holes into the baffle plate to let the oil pass the baffle faster?
Yep.. Drainage.. Those damned moreoso pans, they are a PITA to get right. The fitting on the pan goes too fast of an angle upward, and the oil line running parallel to the i/c pipe can cause the issue very easily.
Hmmmm. Well that sux. I have a stock GSR pan but the tap was leaking and it's in the same spot as the Moroso pan lol. Has anyone came up with a solution?
As long as the turbo is not bad now I'm ok with working around the drain
45° fitting off turbo and straight fitting into pan. IDK why people make it more difficult than it needs to be.
Why do people bitch soo much about the Moroso pans when 95% of the time it's user error or extremely tilted engine mount design? The only real issue is the flanges come pre-warped out of the box. It is really hit or miss at that too. I know quite a few people with ZERO issues with the stock bung location (have had 3 different Moroso pans myself).
because the Moroso pans were made for TOP MOUNT manifolds where making the drains are easier than it is than with most other models. With the varying nature of Kooks-style manifolds and "mini-rams" all over the place, especially when the collectors are long and sit the turbo low, its a PITA. period. the return flanges aren't "warped" out of the box, nor are the bung locations.
Even the road race versions suck donkey *****. A pox on THEM!!
I wouldn't say I'm bitching about the product. I installed the pan correctly and have no leaks from the pan itself. My problem is the drainage and the drainage alone. I also wanted to ask opinions on if this could have possibly ruined the seal bc of my lack of experience with this problem in general.
I have an assortment of fittings that I will be trying out which includes your suggestion of a 45 off turbo and straight fitting to the pan. I did notice that the engine sits a bit titled forward and was on the fence about getting a set of Hasport mounts. This may tip that decision if it's affecting the drain this much. As of now, I have poly inserts to the stock mounts and also the side frame rail mounts (front transmission and A/c mount). Does Hasport tilt the motor back towards the firewall that much more? Is it enough of a degree to make that much a of difference?
I may try a different flange at the turbo drain that excepts a male end 45 fitting to hose and a straight at the pain. Or possibly the same type of male end straight fitting and have it threaded straight to the pan.
You can see in the picture that his moroso pan actualy angles the fitting downward. I can see where oil would back up in the bend of the 45* fitting off the pan. From what is seen with the moroso pan it seems like the bungs are just cut from a large piece of stock and welded on. So depending on if the cut was straight or not and how it happened to be welded can result in the fitting being at an angle anywhere in a 360* circle. If they would at least hit the backside of the fitting on a belt sander it would really help with product quality an continuity. Having the fittings CNC machined or touched up in a CNC would be ideal but not cost effective.
I've heard the Canton pans are solid product though.
Depending on how bad the smoke is the damage might already be done. Typically once there's enough oil seeping through the seal to be seen at the downpipe flange the seal tends to be gone.
. My problem is the drainage and the drainage alone. I also wanted to ask opinions on if this could have possibly ruined the seal bc of my lack of experience with this problem in general.
Thanks for the suggestions this far.
This drainage routing is solely the issue here. You haven't ruined the rear oil sealing ring yet as long as you've stopped driving the car right now. You've got a long ways to go before full destruction.
Also, check the oil feed to make sure that you have an inline oil filter. that does come in MAJOR, when it comes to any contaminated oil that might, in fact, block the oil restrictor passages.
You see the images in my last response. Try to work for that type of routing.
I did see the pictures that you posted during my search and I'm going to see what I can make work. Thanks for sharing. I also didn't think about a filter inline on my feed. I did read an article breaking down the turbo and how the oil passes tiny tiny holes to feed the bearing and could understand the importance of avoiding any debris entering the center cartridge. My feed is coming from a GE sandwich plate right at the filter. Not really sure if that oil is filtered or if it's tapped prior to hitting the filter. It is NOT fed from the stock oil pressure port.
I have not driven the car at all since this has been installed. I simply had the engine running to check for leaks, dialing in my injector deadtime, setting up for 3 bar map, syncing my wideband o2 to Smanager, and making sure my fans click on when they are supposed to.
I'll see if I can work a better angle on the drain and let you all know if it helped.
the return flanges aren't "warped" out of the box, nor are the bung locations.
Even the road race versions suck donkey *****. A pox on THEM!!
Wasn't talking about return flanges - oil pan gasket sealing surface / flange.
The road race version is the same pan with a kickout welded on and different windage tray with trap doors. Why do you not like them either aside from being the same pan?
Wasn't talking about return flanges - oil pan gasket sealing surface / flange.
The road race version is the same pan with a kickout welded on and different windage tray with trap doors. Why do you not like them either aside from being the same pan?
For the same reasons the OP is having problems with PLUS the oil pan gasket sealing issues, that really are only solved with the engine out.. . In addition, they also aren't flat enough on the bottom for a flattened straight shield for Time attack, and don't have the same "trap door" style baffles I need.
The Road race version for H-series is close
But it doesn't look like that for the B-series.
The Canton on the other hand:
With its particular trap door baffles, makes a BIG difference in hard cornering.
The Moroso road race and specific drag race versions are close to $400, like the Canton. But the canton IMHO is the better choice. But I understand most don't want to pay it.
I have an OEM pan with MUGEN baffling tray welded in. When I complete my new build in about a year, that will be replaced with the Canton. PLUS, no gasket issues and MUCH easier to install. As much BS as the K-series guys contend with, at least they go with the canton pans.
Ok, I just took my drain line off and placed a 45 off the turbo and it's not going to work. The hose end hangs too low and is going to cause more horizontal direction than I had before. Might just have to work my stock P72 pan and move the bung location closer to the center. Which is a bummer b/c I really to like the pan. The only way I see making more angle would be as I stated before getting a flange at the turbo that excepts a male 10an fitting. Even then it might net me 1/4-1/2" higher.
When I took the pan side of the line fitting off (with oil in the pan still) I had a lot of oil drain out. Maybe a half qt or more. I didn't measure it yet. I understand that oil is circulating through the engine and turbo etc. when the engine is operating but how much do the galleries and turbo actually hold when operating IDK. I have to wonder if I had too much oil in the pan? When I checked the dip stick it was 3/4 of the way between two dots I assumed meant low and high or maybe warm and cold?
Checked the dipsticks and now I'm at the bottom dot on a cold motor after letting the oil drain from the fitting. This is kind of weird. Maybe the bung is welded too low on these pans to use 4qt of oil?
Also remember that when the engine is running there's typically around a half a quart circulating through the engine at any given time, more if you have a remote filter, oil cooler, etc but the volume is always less than with the engine shutoff. Hence why do you check oil levels on a running engine.
The canton pan is the way to go IMO, especially if you do any sort of spirited driving. The OEM pan with the baffles is also a great option however I haven't seen the baffles Mac has in a long time.
The one extra step that wouldn't hurt to take if you're run in a baffled pan is to pick up a crank scraper/Teflon finger/windage tray combo from crankscrapers.com. Goes a long way in reducing windage and oil vapors within the crankcase and the volume of oil the scraper removed from the counter weights also reduces windage and removes a slight amount of weight off the crank during operation, reducing sprung/rotating mass. Jus something to consider.
45° fitting off turbo and straight fitting into pan. IDK why people make it more difficult than it needs to be.
Why do people bitch soo much about the Moroso pans when 95% of the time it's user error or extremely tilted engine mount design? The only real issue is the flanges come pre-warped out of the box. It is really hit or miss at that too. I know quite a few people with ZERO issues with the stock bung location (have had 3 different Moroso pans myself).
Im starting to not like mine either lol. One for the drain placment (easy fix though)
But there are 6 spot welds on the pan that have somehow started to fail and leak on the outside of the pan. I thought they were damage from shipping when I noticed where the oil film was coming from 3 "dimple" hits on the crank pulley side. I put some black RTV over them and its helped. But now I noticed 3 more on the front of the car. I will take pics tonight.
There was no question the Cantons are superior in quality. I used to have a DEEP discount for Moroso pans or it definitely would have been Canton for the road race version. I was just curious why you preferred one over the other. In my opinion it kinda depends on the style of racing you are doing as well. Having a long flat part may start to accumulate oil if you are making constant left turns.
One pan has a diamond oriented trap door system while the other is square (in relation to the rectangular shape of the pan). The windage trays are slightly different as well. I wish my SD card didn't crash show I could show actual side by side pictures (I can take a picture of my Moroso installed ATM if you want - maybe I will anyways).
OP - My bad, never even considered / saw you had a NPT flange. I personally never run one unless there is a clearance issue of some sort. It is just more fittings to buy and places to leak. I am not sure why people always think no oil will come out of a bung. Have you ever taken the time to look at dipstick location with the pan off? It will make sense once you do.
The other thing is you are supposed to check the oil level with engine off but warm LOL! The top dot is full mark is full the bottom mark means add a specific amount of oil to bring the oil back to full.
No, I haven't taken the time to look at the dipstick with the pan off bc I rarely ever have to take my pan off. Just something that never crossed my mind the few times in did have the pan off.
This is the best I could get the angle with turning the 45 at the pan towards the turbo a little more.
I checked how much oil leaked out when I pulled the line off the pan and it was a little under a half qt. Cranked the car up to see if oil would come out also kept a close eye on my oil pressure (just idling in my driveway) pressure was fine. Revved up to about 6k rpm and had a little smoke come out but not nearly as much as before.
The turbo also had to be clocked with the drain being between 6 and 5 o'clock. Otherwise the feed would hit the manifold flange. It's definitely sloping more though.
Well upon further inspection I noticed I'm missing a bolt that seems to bolt the compressor side to the center cartridge. Could this be why I have a leak? The exhaust side is still wet looking but I didn't run the engine to long to see if it's coming from that. This is getting rather frustrating.
I might be pulling the turbo thus week to give it a good look. Even with the oil capacity full when I pull the drain hose from the turbo and rotate it so that it points to the ground no oil comes out of the line. Seems like if the capacity was causing a build up back to the turbo I would have some pour out right?
Yo see how that fastener is oily? I keep having a drip there. That is the lowest point however. Just seems like a lot of oil to me.
Not necessarily. The backup is caused when you have actual oil PRESSURE. not just based upon volume. The bolt that you're looking for that is missing is replaceable, but only causes a tiny leak. It simply holds the backplate and thrustbearing to the CHRA.
You really have to stop with the orange RTV. It should only be used on the downpipe flange to the turbine outlet, and no where else. None of that is needed on your return flange. It can also cause a backup if too much is used. Remove that oil return flange on the turbo, clean off the RTV and run a proper gasket.
This might be one possible way to route the return. The downpipe will fit similar to yours, but as you can see, on the fitting going into the pan itself, the 45 AN fitting has the entire oil line pointing downward and not upward at the fitting.
This is NOT my personal setup, just one that I'm helping someone with on their Ball-bearing GTX3576R.
I originally didn't have any gasket maker there and had a paper gasket. At that point I thought I simply had a gasket leak.
The first time I installed the flange there was an old gasket baked to the turbo housing that I didn't see (DOH!). So I scrapped all the baked gasket off and ordered a new one. Still had the same leak. So I figured I would try the gasket maker and kept in mind not to block the passage. It's clear when looking through it without the fitting but since the leak is still there I'm going to remove the RTV and put a paper gasket back now that I know it wasn't a gasket problem. I'm going to try and find a replacement bolt.
That is interesting. It's pretty similar to mine for sure.
Ok, I took the car for a small drive down the street just so I can see if anything shows it's face with a small amount of load and it sure did. Got a puddle of oil on top of the CHRA. So I think my leak is showing it's self a little more now. It's not leaking from the feed line but def. a puddle on the engine side of the CHRA. I'll post a picture with my phone.
09-19-2015, 03:01 PM
Turbo exhaust housing is wet
. In addition, they also aren't flat enough on the bottom for a flattened straight shield for Time attack, and don't have the same "trap door" style baffles I need.
