seigisama

Looking for some insight.

New turbo build possibly...
My current tentative plan is as so:
F20b manual full swap ($1200) f20b because Iron sleeves
Bored out to 86 so I can use the bisimoto forged pistons
H22 crank for the increase in stroke and availibity and also so I can use
H22 eagle rods because they are not $800 and out of stock
11:1 bisimoto forged pistons which come out around 10:1 on the h22 crank and rods. The next cr pistons down are 9.5:1 which I think will drop the compression too low and cause a lot of lag.
Now here comes the hard part... Finding a turbo manifold that is a/c and p/s friendly. The ones I've found through searching so far no longer exist, or are race only a prohibitively expensive. Treadstone sells a full kit and just log style manifolds that they claim are a.c./ps compatible, but I can't find any reviews on them. A stainless steel manifold sounds nice...

Now I was thinking of picking up a twisted motion salad shooter (I know a what? they get good reviews in the Nissan community are American made, computer balanced and warranteed) and building a kit around their gt3582 .63ar v2 turbo. http://www.twistedmotionlv.com/apps/...s/show/6203451

Looking for around 300 whp and decent tq

My total budget is $5-6k

If it can't be done for that, my next option was an h22 euro r, with k24 crank machined so it accepts an h22 flywheel, oil pump ring and snout extended. K20 rods and type s pistons. A 99mm (2.35liter) euro r stroker if you will. Ill I/h/e that have it s300 tuned by Jeff Evans (30 minutes away) and call it a day.

Think that would be good for what 250hp/170tq?

What do you think? Any insight on affordable manifolds that are ps/a.c. friendly and still available? Turbo f20b vs stroked euro r longevity, reliability?

2kdrift

common misconception they do not effect lag at all, it does effect the power you have while not in boost but does not effect how quickly the turbo spools

seigisama

While that might be true, a compression ratio in the 8's on a low displacement engine will "feel" laggy, even if the turbo spools up just as quickly. I imagine fuel delivery and displacement help just as as much as other factors. For instance, my direct injected mazdaspeed 6 felt peppier down low compared to my evo x, stock to stock even though the turbo sizes were not that much different in dimension. The Mazda had 3/10ths of a liter on the evo, but was heavier and made overall less power (when stock). But direct injection, and extra displacement realy do help get things spinning. But I suppose "felt," and "was," are two different things... Considering the evo was superior in every way. This leads me to why I want to turbo charge my prelude. I've had it since 2007, but never put much work into it. The ms6 and Evo x got all the work. The Mazda was ultimately totaled a few weeks after a BNR stage 3 turbo upgrade when some girl from new jersey rear ended me while I was sitting at a light. The evo x I sold when my baby was born. The drop from 350awtq, to 150tq at the crank is just too painful. Daddy needs some power.

Thank you for your insight though. I imagine the 700pounds less fat the prelude has and the 8 pound flywheel will help in the pep department. A prelude with 280 wtq has close to the same power to weight as a mazdaspeed 6 with 350 awtq.

Aradin

What you want can be done on a completely stock turbo H22. 300-350whp is easily doable on a healthy engine, assuming quality components and a proper tune. Some people even take that a step further and go up to 400-450whp but eventually longevity becomes an issue.

If you're set on having a forged bottom end for whatever reason and you want to stroke an F20B, do it the right way. Use an F23 crank, F23 H beam rods and some K20 pistons. 86mm on stock sleeves should be good for about 400whp. Could punch it out to 87mm and use H22 pistons if you wanted to stay NA. They make power either way. F20B crank is 88mm stroke. H22 crank is 90.7mm stroke. F22/H23A crank is 95mm. F23 crank is 97mm stroke which is the biggest stroke of all H/F series engines.

seigisama

I'm aware of the stroke differences, and ran a lot through the zealautoworks calculator. But I didn't want to mess up the rod to stroke ratio too much, and what I lack in displacement I can make up for in boost. Thanks though ill look into k series pistons, but won't I have to rotate them 180 degrees? That would put the intake valve recess on the wrong side.

On a side note, ordered the f20b today. $1474 shipped to my door. Engine, lsd 5 speed, harness, and ecu...

Aradin

Rod/stroke isn't as important as you think it is. The F23 crank will make more power everywhere over the H22 crank at the expense of only a few hundred RPM. You can safely take the F23 crank to 7200. 7500 if you run a race bearing. You want torque. That's the avenue to get it.

And yes, you will have to rotate the pistons 180 degrees. Shouldn't be an issue. Valve reliefs on aftermarket pistons are usually pretty accommodating.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes.rod/stroke optimization is highly overrated

seigisama

I looked at the f23 crank and rods rout before, but ruled it out. Now I remember why. While the h22 and f23 share the same rod length, they are not interchangeable. F23 forged rods are harder to find, and more expensive than h22 counterparts. F23 crank and rods in an f20b block kind of sound like a "g23 vtec" but with a smaller bore and a slightly different head. I'm still unsure weather the f20b manual head is a type s/ euro r pde head with matching cams, or if its a standard h series head with smaller valves but with the type s cams... Not that it matters to me. I'm not trying to break power records. Just looking for relatively inexpensive reliable power boost.

Aradin

You can get "white label" F23 rods for a very reasonable price. They are made in the same factory as a major manufacturer but sold unbranded. They come with ARP hardware and you can choose what bolts you want all the up to L19. I have purchased F22 and H22 rods in this manner and never had any problems up to 450whp. Actually bent a pin and cracked a sleeve on one motor because of so much torque, and the rods were completely unphased. Sold them and they were put into another build that's making 500whp and has been getting beat to hell for the past 2 years. I can source a set of F23 H beams and polished STD crank right now for <$400.

seigisama

Interesting. Are these white label rods the ones you see listed on the 'bay for cheap that look like eagle h beams but have no manufacturer listed? By relatively cheap I mean not enough to buy back most of the evo I just sold for 30k.

seigisama

After some searching, it appears that b18c rods will fit an f23 crank, and f20b pistons. The result is a damn high compression ratio. The stock pistons produce almost 12:1. That sound about right?

2kdrift

have u considered buying a civic/integra instead? theres so much more support........... other then that I would just do what arradin says hes very very knowledgeable with H/F series

seigisama

Nope. Don't care much for civics and integras. When you get down to it the systems are the same. I've had my lude for 9 years. Its seen other cars come and go. But now she uses oil like a rotary rx7 and is in the need of a heart transplant.

Schister66

If you're looking for H series stuff and dont want to pay new prices, i have a full sleeved H22 longblock and SLS turbo setup sitting in my garage. Its built specifically for the BB6 chassis. PM me if you want more info

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

In a world of complication, I don't care how much you think you have time to "learn".. Doing this is the best way to get it done, and learn in the process without all the games. I've had quite a few people do other builds with the BB6, and after years of frustration, it all came to this formula right here, and there hasn't been a better one in 15 years. Just sayin'

seigisama

F20b is on the truck today. Should be here before 5. Too bad my cherry picker is coming tomorrow with my stand... But my engine sling comes Tuesday

Aradin

For some reason the forum cut off a good chunk of my initial response to this. To add to my earlier post:

The F20B "PCB" head is based on a P13 head. Only difference is the combustion chamber size to match the smaller bore. Casting and ports are otherwise the same so more or less that's what you're getting. The manual version is the same as the auto but with Type-S springs and cams, that's all. They do not share the factory port job/valve angle of the PDE Type-S/Euro-R heads you're referring too.

It's not a "G23" or anything of that sort. Those builds use a SOHC block and an H series head to basically get a poor man's H series with iron sleeves that usually take a hit on reliability to save a few bucks. There are much better ways to do things than swapping all of that stuff around. Using the F23 crank and rods is just stroking the F20B. Nothing more, nothing less. People do it all the time with all sorts of engines. Same thing you would be doing with an H22 crank in one, just to a greater extent.

seigisama

I had to reschedule delivery to today because all the company had was a full size semi. Ain't getting that in my neighborhood. I rented a uhaul and met the delivery driver for a transfer. FedEx still isn't here with my cherry picker so I had to improvise.

seigisama

Cracked into the f20b today. Cleanest oil I've ever seen. The outside of the engine might be a little cruddy, but the inside looks beautiful. No sludge in the oil pan. Cams very little wear (from what I could see.) bottom end also very clean (from what I could see).

Also, an F23 crank popped up on eBay for $150 shipped. Snagged that up in a hurry.

seigisama

Look how clean this sump is! What oil there was left in the engine was the color of maple syrup. I'm going to be busy doing husband and father things the next few days so I won't have a chance to look at it. From what I can see of them, the cams are in mint condition. These are type s cams though. Should I get a set of adjustable gears to tune out overlap for the turbo?

seigisama

F23 crank and rods came today. Now waiting on my bisimoto refund so I can oder pistons.

seigisama

So I have white label h-beams, an f23 crank, and k20 wiseco forged pistons with a -9c.c. dish. I imagine I will need a f23 crank pulley. I'm running a/c and p/s so using the f20b pulley is out. Not that I could anyway because it had a chunk missing. Looks like ARP main and head studs will cost me around two fiddy. Are there s.s. valve options available for the f20b head?

I still have to find a local shop to do the cylinder boring and sizing, micropolish the crank, align hone the mains (because arp studs) and balance the rotating assembly. (But I can't do that yet, because I need to order a crank pulley and clutch/flywheel)
On to the tear down.

Valve train was pretty wear free, I only found two issues. Bad valve stem seals on # 3 and #4 cylinders. Looks like I'm dusting my valve spring compressor off. Cylinder walls were in great shape, and the rings held thin oil on top of the pistons so it looks like rings/ring lands were in great shape.

seigisama

Stripped the block down today. Everything looks perfect. Bearing in great shape, no deep scratches. Not that it really matters because it is getting a complete rebuild anyway.
Only problem I ran into was getting the freeze out plug that takes a 14mm allen. MFer won't come out. Not even with heat. The one that takes a regular socket, forgot what size, came right out.

seigisama

I ordered a turbo. Came a few days ago. Its an SPA t3/t4 700 .63 turbine ar.

SPA Turbo T3/T4 700 A/R .63 turbochargerT3 turbocharger 1.8L - 4.3L displacement
Journal bearings
Compressor wheel dimensions: 56.00 mm x 73.50 mm / 58 Trim
turbine wheel dimensions 64.00 mm x 80.60 mm / 63 Trim
water / oil cooled
360 degree thrust bearings
T3 A/R .63 free flow turbine housing
compressor housing 4" inlet, 3" outlet - anti-surge housing
I believe it should be enough for my goals. Not going for huge power and figured a .63 ar will spool up "streetably" fast without causing too much back pressure up high. They are popular turbos in the VAG croud, and more prevalent south of the border, but I couldn't find any negative remarks other than someone bashing them because they use turbonetics charas.

Work on the block pre-machine shop is almost complete. Still have to get a clutch flywheel and crank pulley so I can send it off for bore, balancing and align honed mains.