Hondoctors

I was on the dyno tuning with Servion (Jeremy, Neptuner) and I was having a problem with what seemed like the spark being blown out at 25 lbs boost and 6000 RPM. I was using NGK BCPR7ES plugs, gapped at .020". then to .017"... The car would misfire and not accelerate, we let off the throttle obviously, and it seemed like spark was blowing out. Here's the current setup:

Sleeved 9:1 GSR block, JG pro series head w/ .5mm oversize valves, GSR cams, top mount T4/T67 ball-bearing turbo, twin Tial 38mm wastegates, 1600cc injectors, FJO injector driver, M&W Ignition, E85 fuel, big fuel system 8AN sending and 6AN return with a MagnaFuel pump, Neptune EMS.

I'm wondering what would cause this. Am I using to warm of a spark plug? Should I try heat range 8? Does it have something to do with closing the gap on my spark plugs? I thought that this M&W was the pimp ignition to run on high horsepower Hondas. The ignition coil and ignitor have been removed from the distributor. I talked with someone at T1 (Tony or Arturo) and they said the Ignition coil leads were very noisy and to keep them away from everything. The Crane PS92 coil is mounted where the horn would be and the wires are twisted and going through the bumper frame. Total length being 6 feet. The distributor pickup wire is outside of wire loom going behind intake manifold, not shielded. I tried another set of plug wires, NGK blues. Did not try a new coil wire.

I'll have Servion chime in on this, because I'd like ti figure out why this setup doesn't want boost, because I want to turn it up to 30 lbs...

tony1

Does the problem get better as you close up the plug gap? That same ignition box works fine for me at 40+psi and .022 plug gap.

tepid1

Did you try getting rid of that crappy MSD cap and rotor?

6ft is pretty long too. Even twisted there is going to be some loss with the wires that long.

I would also try a different plug range. You don't need 9's just yet. Try the 8 range.

DaveF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tepid1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you try getting rid of that crappy MSD cap and rotor?

6ft is pretty long too. Even twisted there is going to be some loss with the wires that long.

I would also try a different plug range. You don't need 9's just yet. Try the 8 range.</TD></TR></TABLE>

how old is that cap/rotor ? replace them both....

i would switch to a 9 heat range plug, and set the gap @.020

do you have any logs we can view?

DaveF

how old are them injectors ? maybe you should have them cleaned and flowed too.

Hondoctors

The problem doesn't seem to improve much with a tighter gap... The MSD cap and rotor were brand new that day, and the fuel injectors were also brand new. Tony, how tempermental is the M&W box? How did you run the ignition leads and the trigger wire? Shielded? I will try the NGK 8's and then 9's with a .020" gap and see if the condition improves. As far as the logs go, I don't have RTP yet, Servion has everything on his computer. Maybe he'll read this and chime in as well...

done

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondoctors &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem doesn't seem to improve much with a tighter gap... The MSD cap and rotor were brand new that day, and the fuel injectors were also brand new. Tony, how tempermental is the M&W box? How did you run the ignition leads and the trigger wire? Shielded? I will try the NGK 8's and then 9's with a .020" gap and see if the condition improves. As far as the logs go, I don't have RTP yet, Servion has everything on his computer. Maybe he'll read this and chime in as well...</TD></TR></TABLE>

are you fouling out the plugs?

tony1

If the problem doesn't seem to improve with plug gap, then it's not a weak spark problem. Could be RF Noise, could be anything else, but not spark energy. I run my ignition box close to the coil, and both close to the dist. I've also run the ign. box inside the car though with no problems. I use shielded wire for the coil output for extra noise supression, and also on the trigger input wires to help block them from picking up noise.

Those plugs are pretty hot for what you're trying to do, but i don't think that's the problem unless it's causing pre ignition.

pheurton-skeurto

i dont want to jump on another h-t hater bandwagon, but there seem to be alot of negative msd threads lately. maybe swap out some of the msd parts to determine the culprit...

93supercoupe

Does it start missing at a certian pwoer level?


Just thinking.

Kris

The car was making over 400 whp at about 22 lbs boost (just tuning air fuel at that point), the turbo seemed to just be waking up, as soon as we turned up the boost and made a pull, the log read that it hit the desired boost, and then bucked and missed... As soon as high boost set in, is when it was starting to miss. The HP and torque curves started to really ramp up before it started missing. Everything about the engine seemed completely healthy until a higher boost level was reached. The plugs didn't look fouled, they seemed completely healthy...

DaveF

duty cycle ??? <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The plugs didn't look fouled, they seemed completely healthy... </TD></TR></TABLE>


E85, if its this fuel, you should have a relativly clean burn as opposed to pumpgas. and the 7 heat range plugs aint helping you either.....

what you inj duty cycle ?

HOW OLD IS THE GAS IN THE TANK ????

whats your base fuel pressure ?


Modified by dturbocivic at 9:11 PM 1/8/2007

bart2546

My friend used an MSD cap and ignition pack on his 93 hatch, screwed everything up a couple of weeks into putting it on. Not to be a hater but I think MSD is better suited for a larger engine build than on our hondas.

servion

Jarrod, if I remember right, we started with a larger plug gap (.025 or 028 if I remember right), and as we started to turn up the boost, it started to miss. We gapped it down to .020 and that fixed the problem. Then we got to the point to turn up the boost some more, and it started missing again, so we gapped it down again, and that time it didn't help much. .017" is a pretty tight gap for not even 500 (mustang)whp.

FYI, plugs were burning nicely up until the missing issues, and we had to stop playing with it due to another unrelated issue. Were planning on swapping in the colder plugs once we started to make bigger power.

coneheadsracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bart2546 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend used an MSD cap and ignition pack on his 93 hatch, screwed everything up a couple of weeks into putting it on. Not to be a hater but I think MSD is better suited for a larger engine build than on our hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Two years strong for me, full setup. The 6al box i'm using is 10+ years old. If your having issues with your ignition setup and its aftermarket, make sure your wiring is all solid, doesn't take much to have problems.

Sorry, not much help here, i just hate the MSD hondabandwagon haters

tepid1

lol

I'm not one of those... I actually run the MSD ProBillit Dizzy. No hate. I just feel that the replacement cap and rotor are crap. OEM is much better....

Semnos

go to heat range 8-9

matt k

its not the heat range are you having head gasket problems water sucks to ignite

NJIN BUILDR

Could it be a lean misfire? From my experience with mechanical fuel injection and alcohol you can have raw fuel running out the pipes and the plugs look like new.But when they're lean they pop and skip,and the plugs look like new.

DaveF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> duty cycle ???


E85, if its this fuel, you should have a relativly clean burn as opposed to pumpgas. and the 7 heat range plugs aint helping you either.....

what you inj duty cycle ?

HOW OLD IS THE GAS IN THE TANK ????

whats your base fuel pressure ? </TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJIN BUILDR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Could it be a lean misfire? From my experience with mechanical fuel injection and alcohol you can have raw fuel running out the pipes and the plugs look like new.But when they're lean they pop and skip,and the plugs look like new.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondoctors

Duty cycle was 40%, gas in the tank was 2 days old, base fuel pressure was 60 psi (the pump I'm using is rated at 70psi base pressure in there testing)

tony1

How much boost and power was this at?

NJIN BUILDR

I'm out of my comfort zone but 40% sounds low for e85 at 500+ hp w/1600's.That sounds more like gasoline numbers.But like I say I'm not too familier with e85.

DaveF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJIN BUILDR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm out of my comfort zone but 40% sounds low for e85 at 500+ hp w/1600's.That sounds more like gasoline numbers.But like I say I'm not too familier with e85.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well its more alcohol than gas......

Meat_Wagon

My NGK's would foul out after a week of driving with e85. I switched to an autolite heat range 8 plug and have never had any problems since. This was at the 500whp mark.