AutoLab

you ever have one of those problems (that is usually so easily resolved) that you get so frustrated you want to crush the car? Anyways....

Heres the deal,

2.0L 4G63 Evo VIII
70mm 42R w/ Tial SS 1.0 housing (beautiful housing btw)
+1 valves, 288 cams, short runner intake manifold
Tial 44mm gate, recently switched to a 60mm gate w/ 1bar spring

I know the car has a combo of parts that would make it likely to overboost, but trying to run pump gas friendly boost when I have to daily drive the car has proven to be impossible. I would have thought the car would have serious overboost issues with a 44 but as big as the 60 is I almost laughed when I took it out of the box. I never thought I would still be having problems.

~20psi would be nice. With the 1bar spring (with and without a elec controller) the car is hitting 28-30psi. Thats a significant overboost lol. The manifold uses a 4" collector, the tube to the gate pulls off the side of the collector and is 2.5" ID. It just doesn't add up, the manifold design is good, the gate is opening. Why in the hell is it doubling gate spring?

Is anyone else out there having similar issues? I have read on forums, for what thats worth, of people running as low as 4psi with the 60mm. I am not blaming Tial or the gate. The gate is opening, I confirmed that because the dumptube comes out of the hood of the car

mike93eh2

well i think our problem lies with the EBC..

or you should have just ran two wastegates instead of the 60.

Si Shane

1.854pi inches squared for the 60mm
2pi for the two 44s.

Are you speaking only about the area?

Schister66

Do you have pictures of the manifold?? Is the wastegate in a bad spot?

SpoolnG2

Up for pictures of the wastegate placement....there should be nothing that a 60mm gate in a good position shouldnt be able to handle.

AutoLab

space constraints wont allow two gates, i could barely fit the 60. I dont have any pics but I guess I could pull the downpipe and take one. just imagine your typical 4" tall collector, sch40 1.5" material, with a enormous 2.5" ID sch40 tube coming right off the side (90*) of the collector and leading to the gate. the tube going to the gate is about 3" long.

HiProfile

Since I'm not familiar with the ebc functions that comes with the Evo, is it possible to try running only off the WG spring? The ebc should be ruled out 100% before you go on. Doubling spring pressure sound to me like its barely feeding any boost to the lower half of the wg (or too much on top), and its relying mostly on exhaust pressure to open it.

BTW calculating WG 'area' is actually done by finding the [total lift of the valve * diameter of valve * 3.1416]. It flows around the valve, not through it. And FYI, 2.5" is bigger than a lot of people's exhausts here.

akira712

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since I'm not familiar with the ebc functions that comes with the Evo, is it possible to try running only off the WG spring? </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AutoLab &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

~20psi would be nice. With the 1bar spring (with and without a elec controller) the car is hitting 28-30psi. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you could get your hands on another 60mm id try that, rules out the gate.
And try a different vac/boost source.

NLR

i would say the problem is your gate pipe coming off at 90 degrees to exhaust pulse.

AutoLab

I appreciate the input guys. I knew the ebc wasnt the problem, its one of the blue MAC valves that everyone and their brother rebadges (Autronic, AEM, etc). Theyre great solenoids that I have never had issues with, but just for s&g I ran straight gate and it still creeps. I have the vac source coming off the comp housing, also had it off the intake manifold which if anything would increase the boost a little.

In my 10yrs of doing this Ive never had a defective gate but I am taking everything apart today and will open the 60 to see if everything looks ok inside.

NLR

take the gate off and make a hit! That will tell you if its the gate or not

SpoolnG2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NLR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would say the problem is your gate pipe coming off at 90 degrees to exhaust pulse. </TD></TR></TABLE>


This is exactly what i'm thinking and the reason we wanted to see pics....

twkdCD595

as indicated above by NLR and others, the problem is probably not the gate but rather the placement... you should try what NLR suggests to find out real quick while you have the gate off inspecting it.

i totally disagree with akira about just going and buying another gate to try before you know if its truely the gate or not that even is the problem. throwing parts at it without knowing where the issue lies is just wasting money.

akira712

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i totally disagree with akira about just going and buying another gate to try before you know if its truely the gate or not that even is the problem. throwing parts at it without knowing where the issue lies is just wasting money.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akira712 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you could get your hands on another 60mm id try that, rules out the gate.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Never said to buy another gate, read it again and tell me that you totaly disagree with a 5min job of swaping a gate.

I would doubt that it would be the gate as well, but you cant prove its not till you find the root cause. And seems as the ebc and vac source isnt the issue try the next easiest thing, the gate, then if no joy redo the gate runner.

twkdCD595

I disagree with the 5 min. job of swapping gates.

akira712

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree with the 5 min. job of swapping gates. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agree to disagree then, but at least you can read now

twkdCD595

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akira712 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Agree to disagree then, but at least you can read now</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who said I could not before.

Just testing with no gate like NLR suggested would take even less time and would yield just as much, if not more, information about the cause of the problem. Also as he did not mention having another 60mm gate laying around (and very very few people do have a 5xx.xx$ v60 tial gate laying around not being used) your suggestion would require buying another.

I guess I am just to use to your usual plug telling someone to buy a syncronic gate/ bov cause those would not do that like you do in other tial threads.


Modified by twkdCD595 at 11:00 AM 4/28/2008

akira712

Buy a synapse 50mm gate

twkdCD595

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akira712 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Buy a synapse 50mm gate</TD></TR></TABLE>

... or 2.

touche' sir...

TiAL

let's see a pic of that manifold

I just spoke with one of our promod cars and that can't make enough boost with the 60mm's lol twin 5533R's 560 cid (problem was he didn't have enough Co2 on top to run 50+psi)

AutoLab

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akira712 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Buy a synapse 50mm gate</TD></TR></TABLE>

no thanks, been doing business with Tial for a long time and theyre great.

Schister66

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akira712 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Buy a synapse 50mm gate</TD></TR></TABLE>

If i Tial 60mm isn't working, i'd really doubt that this is going to help the problem. Personally, i'd much rather stay with a Tial

SpoolnG2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schister66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If i Tial 60mm isn't working, i'd really doubt that this is going to help the problem. Personally, i'd much rather stay with a Tial </TD></TR></TABLE>


Agreed, why would you step down to a smaller wastegate if a larger one isnt working?

akira712

I was being facetious, trying to get twkdCD595 going. I really don't care what gate anyone uses as long as its not ssac.

Enzo-Racing

Problem is exhaust is not properly exiting the gate.
IF you remove the gate all together you will still have the same problem.

When you have a very efficient turbo setup, exhaust will always flow thru the turbo and not out the wastegate unless you have good entry into the gate. A 90 off the collector is not good entry.