BodyKits NW

So thought my week couldn't get any shittier. My new Laptop takes a ****, I have no internet access at our new place, no phone lines etc. etc. So I took some time to work on my car so I can get it moved with the rest of my stuff. Well anyways.

Had some great progress. I had hpfsi help me tune my car since he was familiar with the software and could understand what I needed done. If I told my brother to add more fuel at bla bla he would have scratched his head. I'll teach him sooner or later. Anyways I had Chris man the laptop while I took the car through the gears while he told me what was going on. Had him make changes where it was needed and did about 20 logs. The car freaking hauls ***.

Tuning the EMS to be honest was a piece of cake. I have been readin up on it for months, and have been talkin to Jason over IM for quite awhile. Talked to Mase a few times, but I don't really get a chance to catch him online too often. But I did my studyin and after last night I got it down pretty good. Ran into a few lil things, but nothing that someone couldn't help me understand or figure out. Gotta love BOOST COMP cause that **** saved my life. I spike to 16lbs cause my dumbass hooked up the wastegate wrong. I forgot I wasn't using the GM solenoid yet and had the Vacumm source hooked on top of the wastegate. No biggie since Boost Comp had me at about 11.5:1 AF ratio all the way up top.

But anyways once I got the wastegate hooked up I noticed that it would keep boostin up past .5bar which is about 7psi. The logs showed that it would get up to the 11-12psi load at about 7000 RPMS. My boost guage read about the same. I can't get it to hold steady at 7 pounds. It kicks *** and all, but I need it to hold steady even though the EMS can handle it, givin me enough fuel and etc to run in that area.

So after messin with it all day I took the wastegate out and I thought it was the actual VBand, or maybe the ceramic coating messin with the way the Vband was seating. But after checking all that and not getting anywhere I decided to mount the wastegate to the wastegate flange and damn....the damn thing was warped. I put the wastegate butt up against the flange without the center ring for those of you that might thing that is what was causing it to not sit flat. Without the center ring it would not sit flat!

Here are some pics. You can see how it's blowing out. Notice all the carbon deposits.





So what you guys thing I should do? Have Full-Race send me a new flange and have it welded on? I have already sent this back to have that flange rewelded once before cause the wastegate was not clearing the AC compressor. Got any ideas to fix this! I was gettin desperate today. I was thinking of just weldin the damn wastegate on haha! This sux cause I just had the manifold all coated!!!!!!

PrecisionH23a

Take it to a machine shop and have it decked flat. It looks like a decent gap, maybe 20-30 thou maybe? It's hard to tell from the picture, it could also be possible that taking off that much could jeapordize the seal the t-bolt clamp creates.

BodyKits NW

Yah I was thinking about that, but then you would have to think about the inner groove that the wastegate flange has. It's not just a flat flange, it actually has a step into the flange that the inner ring or whatever they call it sits into.

Overblown-Teg

Man that does suck. That flange is really bent.. Could you get in there with a belt sander and sand it flat?

I think the best thing is going to be send it to Full Race.. If you already sent it back once why would they not have checked it before resending?? are you sure your wastegate is not machined wrong?

JDogg

everything still going ok??

did you get it on the dyno yesterday?


but yeah, id bitch at full race, but damn sending some ****.. that takes to long, id take it to the machine shop and have it decked flat

White Smoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but yeah, id bitch at full race, but damn sending some ****.. that takes to long, id take it to the machine shop and have it decked flat </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ya if you get it machined flat you should not have a problem. The inner ring will do all the sealing. If it doesnt work you will have to get a new flange welded on anyway Of course I would expect full-race to pay for it

Ekasey

take it a simple face grider and grind it down slightly till it sits flat

Blown90hatcH

An exhaust leak is not going to be the problem of it overboosting. What turbo/turbine wheel are you running? See my issues and overboosting problems here.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=976704

Jason

stizzit

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eLusive ek4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">take it a simple face grider and grind it down slightly till it sits flat</TD></TR></TABLE>

depending on the vband and how much material you need to take off chance are that will only make it worse. If the vband can no longer squeeze the flanges together because they're already smaller than the smallest width of the V in the Vband you will be worse off.

Chances are you will be pulling that flange off to weld on a new one. You may want to find out WHY it warped in the first place, the 44mm Gate is fairly new, im wondering if the VBAND flange can't tollerate the heat?

BodyKits NW

Naw, Full-Race will take care of me. I am just tryin to get some other opinions here cause it is overboostin like mad. I have the GTS61 turbo on the car right now. If guys with Full-Race AC manifolds can run T3/T67 setup's on their cars, I don't see why I can't run a GST61 with no problems. The wastegate is plenty big for what I need. I got no vaccum leaks. I am runnin the vaccum line from the compressor housing to the side of the Tial 44mm wastegate.

BodyKits NW

"Jdogg" Everything is cool. The EMS is great. I drove around town for about an hour and tuned Thottle Injection Correction no problem. Got it at 14.7-15.3 around town. I left the fuel map alone and see about 11.5-11.9 all through the load points at WOT. I did not get a chance to go on the dyno, I wanted to figure out this problem first.

After messin with it, I know I can tune it perfectly, but I am just going to leave it alone for now. The damn thing drives like stock, but I am sure I can get the AF ratio right on. Anyways I wanna figure out why I can't seem to keep my boost steady. It will hold at 7psi for a lil bit then once I get to about 7k it just jumps and it's gone!

Full-Race Geoff

an exhaust leak will ABSOLUTELY cause boost spiking. The leak you have is certainly responsible for your boost creep, excess lag, and poor transient response.

The problem is not as simple as just resurfacing the flanges. We (full race) surface every everything before it leaves the shop. This is the 3rd customer we have had who has had a problem with the seal. I believe it to be due to tial's 44mm vband clamp, but i am not 100%. Give tial a call and see what they can do for you.

Finest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BodyKits NW &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am runnin the vaccum line from the compressor housing to the side of the Tial 44mm wastegate. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm, I run mines off a source on the intake manifold. I remember reading some people running it before the TB.

But coming right off the compressor housing wouldn't necessarily account for the pressure drop through the intercooler and/or piping. Maybe that explains the boost spiking? The pressure coming off the compressor doesn't necessarily mean that's the amount of boost your motor is seeing in the intake manifold/combustion chambers. Or am I wrong in assuming this?

BROOD

Is the weld Vband flange (one welded to the manifold) level? It is difficult to see the condition of that flange in the pics but it appears to be the one that I would suspect.
I'm assuming that the Vband flange (on the WG body) is flat and the sealing ring has no issues.......
I also heard Tial had issues with the Vband clamp suppiler, but I doubt it would cause this. Is the gap in the Vband clamp the same width all the way across the clamp?

If the weld Vband flange was face machined after welding was it done level or off level? That would change the clamp tension that the Vband can administer and it would cause the sealing ring to be out of alignment with the valve face.

JDogg

using the port on the compressor cover for the wg will usually cause about 1-3psi less boost than what the spring is rated for.

stizzit

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I believe it to be due to tial's 44mm vband clamp, but i am not 100%. Give tial a call and see what they can do for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So would you recommend holding off on a 44mm gate until Tial figures out the problem or do you think its isolated?

GT61 this 1.8t

so how many people are actually running the 44mm gate?
like stated above, it is a new product...
makes me a little leary of using it, i still have big plans for the 44mm gate and a full-race manifold on my vw 1.8t despite this minor warping issue...
geoff noted 3 others having similar issues...
anyone else with first hand experiance with this warping issue?


Modified by GT61 this 1.8t at 9:45 PM 9/15/2004

Overblown-Teg

How does a leak in the wastegate cause boost creep? The leak is doing the same thing as the gate is..

BROOD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stizzit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So would you recommend holding off on a 44mm gate until Tial figures out the problem or do you think its isolated?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I bet it is an isolated occurance, after checking two 44mm gates I have....the fittment between the flanges is fine.

**although the flanges I looked at have not been welded on yet**


Modified by BROOD at 2:30 PM 9/15/2004

GT61 this 1.8t

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BROOD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I bet it is an isolated occurance, after checking two 44mm gates I have....the fittment between the flanges is fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
seems that way...
lets hope no more of these "flange wont line up" threads pop up.

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">an exhaust leak will ABSOLUTELY cause boost spiking. The leak you have is certainly responsible for your boost creep, excess lag, and poor transient response.

The problem is not as simple as just resurfacing the flanges. We (full race) surface every everything before it leaves the shop. This is the 3rd customer we have had who has had a problem with the seal. I believe it to be due to tial's 44mm vband clamp, but i am not 100%. Give tial a call and see what they can do for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Geoff If you have a leak you would be reducing pressure in the exhaust and losing volume how would this create a spike and or creep? If the wastegate itself is functioning properly.

Jared

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eLusive ek4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Geoff If you have a leak you would be reducing pressure in the exhaust and losing volume how would this create a spike and or creep? If the wastegate itself is functioning properly.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

probably because the size of the exhaust leak will vary with manifold pressure which really causes the wastegate problems when trying to regulate boost, especially when backpressure is highest.

Overblown-Teg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

probably because the size of the exhaust leak will vary with manifold pressure which really causes the wastegate problems when trying to regulate boost, especially when backpressure is highest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A leak is basically like having the wastegate not close. That in no way can cause boost creep.. The wastegate will still open at the set psi.

Is the flange on the manifold or the wastegate not straight?

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

probably because the size of the exhaust leak will vary with manifold pressure which really causes the wastegate problems when trying to regulate boost, especially when backpressure is highest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The waste gate doesn't read backpressure it functions off of boost/vacuum alone to my knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong

Blown90hatcH

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GT61 this 1.8t &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so how many people are actually running the 44mm gate?
like stated above, it is a new product...
makes me a little leary of using it, i still have big plans for the 44mm gate and a full-race manifold on my vw 1.8t despite this minor warping issue...
geoff noted 3 others having similar issues...
anyone else with first hand experiance with this warping issue?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I tuned a civic last week that made 600whp. I had no problems with leaking or any other issues from the wastegate.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eLusive ek4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The waste gate doesn't read backpressure it functions off of boost/vacuum alone to my knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes and no. There has to be a certain level of pressure not consumed by the turbine wheel that vents into the wastegate port. The problem with the larger turbine wheels is that the consumption, for lack of a better example, is large and it requires more boost psi before the wastegate will open up. Example with my car, I have the .5 bar spring in it and the wastegate would maintain boost at 15psi. I ported the fire ring inside the wastegate and the full race wastegate port and now it maintains around 13psi. I bet if andy, just for trial, went to a larger wastegate, his boost would maintain at a lower level. As far as the leak is concerned, I do not see how that would cause boost spiking. It is allowing......which the amount is probably small considered the vband clamp is catching most of it, pressure to escape. Whether it is bleeding off of the wastgate or through a leak, it is still allowing the pressure to drop.