Freshdot

Background:

So as some of you already know I run a d16z6 setup that made great numbers with a GReddy TD05-18G 330@20psi and that was with cylinder #4 having a sunken lining unbeknownst to myself at the time of tuning. It wasn't until I began pushing coolant a few weeks later that the issue was realized, my quick fix resulted in a new head gasket that was copper sprayed and to tell you the truth, it's been fine for about 1000 miles. However we all know that eventually it's going to fail. Tired of having block issues, I am now sending the block to Benson for sleeves.

Initially my intentions were to keep the setup the same and keep the 18G, only this time run it at it's highest capable psi - figure 24psi being it's limit.

Lately, I've been toying with the idea of upgrading to a 20G, why? might you ask this turbo in lieu of say a Garrett GT30? The answer is simple - money. A different turbo would require a different manifold, downpipe, external WG, etc, etc. Ballparking $2500 when all is said and done. I'm not shooting for high horsepower, just more than what I have now.

Hence, the TD05-20G..I can get a plug and play unit for my exact setup for $900 brand new. I could probably get a used Garrett for the same price, but it definitely won't have a T25 flange, IWG, and 5 bolt downpipe flange.

I'd simply like to know what you guys would do? Is it worth me spending the $900 on the 20G for the setup? What kind of power can I expect it to make over the 18G at the cost of spool time?

My though process is simple..the 20G in a TD05 should spool relatively close to the 18G I already have with a bit more breathing room in the peak horsepower range. I'd like to see the car making closer to 400, being that I'm doing the sleeves. And I can see the 20G hitting this mark without having the stress the turbo out like I would the 18G.

Intentions with the car..It's basically a street car that I would like to start bringing to road racing events. My money is allocated more for beefing up my suspension this season, hence why I'd like a plug and play turbo.

This is the exact unit I'm looking at, now before we go nit picking at the brand and this and that..I have personal experience with this turbo on 2 different cars an Evo - 25G and an STi - 60-1, both working flawlessly for roughly the last 2 years. I will be running a 10psi turbosmart actuator on mine should I get one.



Finally, if this is just an all around stupid idea..please don't sugar coat it and tell me. Sometimes a mo'fuckah just needs to hear
that haha.

Oh and allow me to say thanks ahead of time for reading all this. I can be a neurotic at times, and this is my last build so I want to get it right..getting married next year and the fiance isn't thrilled with my spending habits lol.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

It's not a stupid idea. The TDxx series turbos are still great units with halfway decent aerodynamics. The turbine wheels flow well and the new billet wheels people are releasing for them have all been updated with modern features like a thinner hub and blades, taller blade heights, extended tips, and revised blade angles as well as a variety of blade counts (lower blade counts preform better at higher pressures) making them very efficient and cost effective units. Even more so when you factor in the parts compatibility across the various sizes.

Just put a billet 20g wheel and pre machined cover on your 18g. Straight swap.

Granted I'm having a hell of a time finding a compressor cover for my TD06SL2-20G in a td05h CHRA. All of the housings seem to be for the larger TD06 backplate.

If you decide to sell the 18G in a month or two (just started new job) let me know. Been looking for one forever. I'd love you long time lol.

As far as the 20G wheel it's good for roughly 690cfm or 48lb/min at its limit. You won't see anywhere near that due to the flow limit of the td05h turbine wheel but I do see you breaking 400 on a single cam.

With a larger td06 base turbine wheel you could easily tap out the compressor wheel. For example my TD06SL2-20G can easily reach the limits and put down 450hp (this was on an sr20det). The size difference between the td05h and TD06 turbine wheels will be negligible, especially if you opt for one the lightweight 9 bladed versions. The 9 bladed versions also have a slightly higher mass flow limit simply because there's less turbine wheel in the way to restrict flow.

However with the 20G able to create high pressures at low rpm you'll encounter surge making a ported shroud housing a must. Even though what you posted has a ported shroud that design had been proven to perform poorly when compared to a traditional design. They make TD06 20G compressor covers with a traditional ported shroud I can link you to

But seriously let me have the 18G when I have a couple paychecks saved up <3

Freshdot

Dude, you seriously rock. It hadn't dawned on me to perhaps build the turbo I already have, mainly because they are sort of an enigma to me. The 20G billet wheel upgrade and compressor housing on what I already have is an excellent idea and also cost effective which is what I was reaching for.

Can you please link to me to the various venders that I need to check out in order to accomplish this? I'm so incredibly stoked that I can just repackage the turbo I have now and have it behave like what I'm searching for.

It looks like I'll be keeping this sucker for a bit, if anything does in fact change and I decide to sell it, you'd be the first person to know! It's the least I could do.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Well like I said you'll have a hard time finding a compressor housing to fit the TD05H CHRA. All of the upgrade housings are based on the TD06 housings which are bigger. I've been searching for months and can't find one. Only options would be machining your current housing or sourcing another Greddy/MHI 18G cover or getting a T518Z 18G cover and having it machined.

So it would probably be financially easier and quicker time wise to buy a pre-assembled 20G. I would consider upgrading to one of the smaller TD06 turbine wheels if you really want to explore the limits of the 20G wheel. It seems silly to but another turbo that you would have ultimately have to spend money on again to upgrade in order to fully utilize it. Cost wise the wheels all cost the same you'd just have to get another turbine housing which an internal wastegate t25/5 boot housing lie you currently have is around 150.

After I eat I'll post a photo of the backplate size differences between the TD05, TD06, and TD07 compressor housings (I have all 3) and I'll PM you the links.

Freshdot

Correct me of I'm wrong, but isn't this exactly what would be needed to make my TD05-18G into a 20G?

Mitsubishi 3" Turbo Anti-Surge Compressor Housing & Whee TD05H TD06 20G

albeit, this is not the better designed anti-surge housing and billet wheel you mentioned earlier. I just want to make sure we're on the same page and that I'm grasping what your saying correctly.

Also I want to throw it out there that the exact turbo model I currently own is a GReddy TD05H-18G..I always forget to include the "H" I'm not sure what that designates, and would actually like to know.

Edit: Just found this, which appears to be an exact fit for just $275

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-MHI-TD05H-20G-52-56-68-01mm-11-Blades-49179-43400-/181670784461?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a4c6c2dcd&vxp=mtr


I also want to add that my setup includes the use of an edelbrock cast manifold. Just feel like that's an important piece of the puzzle here. Photo below for reference, please don't make fun of my photoshop!!

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

That's a td06 housing. The td05 part refers to the family of the wheel. I've messaged him to get a back view/measurement of the housing.

Here's the difference between the TD05, TD06, and TD07 turbo families.

From left to right: TD06SL2-20G in a TD05H CHRA, TE06H/TD06H-25C, SCHWITER 3LM (TD07)







That should give you a clear picture of the differences in size between the housings and backplates and why you just can't interchange between turbo families.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

He messaged me back saying it should fit the TD05 CHRA. However given what I've seen in my research I'd take it with a grain of salt. The price is on point for what you get. Typically that housing sells for 99 plus shipping, the wheels around 150ish. However with the taller wheels sometimes the ported shroud groove hasn't been raised to match so it could cause some funky turbo behavior at high pressures. I would personally go with the 7+7 wheel for your goals.

I'm going to order the same thing till get my 20G away from the Nissan inlet/outlet housing and because the pressures I plan on running will definitely cause surge at lower rpm in the higher gears.

While you're at it I'd order a "bullet" shaft nut from Kinugawa, it helps smooth out airflow into the wheel slightly as it isn't having to make a bunch of right angle turns over the nut and hub of the wheel.

Freshdot

Wait, now I'm a tad bit confused..Do any of the products I linked above for my said turbo work?

Also, from a similar post I had made a while back..you mentioned something about swapping out my TD05 wheel in favor of a 9 blade TD06 wheel, is this a direct swap into the housing I already own?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

No you would need a different turbine housing if you wanted to use a TD06 turbine wheel. They do make a 9 bladed td05h turbine wheel.

Linked where? The housing/wheel combo you just posted above I replied to above. I saw that a while back and messaged the seller.

You just need a finer understanding of the MHI turbo classification. The TDxx typically refers to the turbine wheel family and size and usually defines the CHRA used. The XXg always refers to the compressor wheel size. All MHI parts are interchangeable with each other for the most part except for compressor housings (TD06 won't fit on a td05 CHRA. Etc. Your can see the side differences in my photos) and the TE06H/TD06H turbine wheels and compressor wheels aren't interchangeable as the H at the end of the turbine wheel classification indicates heavy duty and thus they have a larger turbine shaft at the bearing area and the shaft area.

Usually .5mm larger in diameter than a normal TDxx shaft (in regards to the TD05H IIRC this means it uses the larger TD06 shaft diameters as the standard TD05 uses the next step smaller shaft diameter. I would need to confirm this though as I haven't looked at the smaller turbos in a while). For the most part any td05 to td07 component save for the compressor housings can be interchanged, CHRA, turbine wheel, compressor wheel, Etc. Think of it as the Mitsubishi version of building a hybrid t3/t04e.

I'll try to get TheShodan to elaborate/clarify if needed.

Freshdot

This is where I'm at with following you, at least I hope so.

I can purchase this wheel:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-MHI-TD05H-20G-52-56-68-01mm-6-6-Blades-49179-43400-/281612802545?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41916e59f1&vxp=mtr
Use this housing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121308066279?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
And finally use this turbine wheel:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281552833059?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

All as plug and play replacements for my current 18G???

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Basically yes. However I would suggest a ported shroud housing.

And the nickel sport wheel is a direct copy, no extended tip, thinner hub, revised blade angle, etc. The housing and wheel combo you posted uses a thinner hub, blades, taller inducer blade height, extended tip, and so on. It would definitely be themost efficient choice to get more power per lb of boost as well as maximizing the power you can make with the td05h turbine wheel

Freshdot

So I want to purchase the wheel and housing combo I posted further above correct?? The one for $275 with the 7 blade option??

Sorry for being redundant, I just want to buy this stuff one time..you've been a great help and I'm excited as **** to be modding this turbo that's already been so good to me.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Yes that's what you need to by. Make sure to ask the seller that if by chance the cover doesn't fit that you can return it.

I've found a few covers that should work given the diameter of the side that mates to the CHRA but I'm not 100% sure until I get measurements.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Not a whole helluva lot to say, considering that no one uses genuine MHI Center turbos anymore due to the 300% price hike that occurred back in 2011.

But from what I remember after rechecking my mental archives, I do remember that the TD05H-20G in a 7^cm turbine, used the TD05H 17C compressor housing (or whatever company overseas makes one) and was machined to fit. It doesn't really matter now, as they all come cast for the TD04-13G and 19T anyway.

See, MHI stuff is much more confusing than the HKS, Garrett, Turbonetics, BW, Precision stuff. "TD04" and "TD05" refer to the turbocharger housing (either turbine housing or compressor housing or both), including the center housing. There are different styles of the basic housings and these have different suffixes appended to the basic designation, such as TD04L, TD04H, TD04HL, TD05, TD05H, and TD05HR.

For example, TD05H-16G 7cm^2 is a turbo with,

•TD05 turbine housing with 'H' style turbine wheel. There are S, SH, H... style of turbine wheel/housing.

•16G compressor wheel. 16 is the size of the wheel, 1.83 inducer, 2.37 exducer. There is no direct correlation between MHI designation and actual physical size of the compressor wheel. G is the style of wheel (uneven height of blades). C, B, T style wheel's blades have the same height. Blades are equally spaced, but the number and pitch of the blades vary between models.

•8cm^2 is referring to exhaust discharge area in the turbine housing. More specifically, it is the smallest cross-sectional area of the scroll, turbine housing. Very similar to Garrett turbo's A/R. The smaller number means faster spool-up but more back pressure at higher rpm. Bigger number means longer spool up but less back pressure, thus more top end power.

The "R" in MHI terminology doesn't mean ball-bearing like in Garrett world; it means "Reverse" as in the compressor wheel was designed to be in reverse rotation like those found in the TD05H16G6R-9cm that is in the Mitsubishi Evolution.

That's kinda it. I don't mess with that Kinugawa "pre-balanced stuff", or their billet wheels, so I won't even have an opinion. I just don't trust it enough to care. I guess this is where my old bias comes in. By the time I get all that **** together from eBay, I could have put 3 Garretts together within the same time-frame and not only would have had more usability, but I could resell my old unit to over 10 different engine platforms and not just the small displacement Honda, Kia, Saab, and Subaru guys.. I've gotten a bit lazy over the years.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the easiest way is to think of it like this...

the td05 is comparable to a t04b
the td06 is comparable to a t04e
the td07 is comparable to a t04s

at least in regards to the compressor side, the turbine sides can vary wildly between the families of wheels

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I would only do that concerning compressor housing size, not compressor wheel at all.

Freshdot

Ok so one last time lol,

I need a 20G compressor housing that's compatible with my TD05H Greddy 18G, a 20G billet 7 blade wheel, and a 9 blade TD05H turbine wheel. Then I'm assuming a rebuild kit is a good idea.

Lastly, how do I go about getting this thing balanced?

Freshdot

these are the prices I got from turbo lab america, at this rate I'm going to ship it to him and let him send me back a nice 20G packaged in TD05 packaging! I'm pretty damn excited and can't wait to see what we do on the dyno!

9 blade turbine 100
compressor housing 85 to 100
bearing housing 75
rebuild kit 55
billet 20g wheel 165
snap ring 5
vband clamp 10
and 40 for assembly

for $550 I can't think of a better option on the market for my build.


...I have a question for you guys, why does this turbo seem to perform much better on my D16 or any honda motor for that matter than the DSM and Subie guys? They struggle to hit 300's with much higher PSI. I've had to do most of my 18/20G research on their forums for obvious reasons lol.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

You really don't need the 9 bladed wheel if you're staying td05h, it would make more sense to put that money towards some sort of small TD06 turbine wheel so you can take full advantage of the larger compressor but ultimately the decision is up to you

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Much lower static compression causes them to have to run more boost pressure to get to the same effective compression as you.

Those engines utilize more exhaust backpressure than you.

Even as a D-series, you have better cylinder head flow than those engines do.

Lots of small little reasons

Freshdot

will a TD06 wheel fit in my current TD05H housing?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

no.

Freshdot

Gotcha, so it would seem that the only remaining part of my 18G would be the CHRA should I decide to go with the TD06H and 20G upgrades.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Or get a GT3071R with an internal gate T25 in a T04b (2.75" inlet) and be done with it. No machining, no work, and it fits.

LightningTeg

This^