ESP.net

I had a turbo failure on the dyno. Was running fine till made 0 boost on a dyno run. The shaft is either broken or extreme play. You can see small about of material out of the cover. Setup H23V -3 Feed -10 AN return. 45* to pan. Bottom mount turbo. Return slopes slightly to pan kinda close to level. The turbo had 17 miles on it. Had run over several months fine no issues couple miles here and there.... I have had it over a year so waranttee is a no go most likely.

I guess my question... seems like it is a freak incident on a premature failure? Now I am wondering if I should step it up to a -4 on feed line and to run a restrictor or not? .060. Precision obviously says -4 no restrictor. I had called them before install of turbo and told me -3 would be fine and anything bigger 6266 would be smart to do -4 64xx etc turbo.

What shall I do? should I seriosly think of going Ball Bearing and spend the additional $600? At that point -4.

I ideally would like to get same turbo again Journal Bearing but no issues lol

My oil pressure is 90 cold... semi warm 50-60 and a bit lower 30 or so warm.

Thoughts? Advice?

Txdragon

Prepare yourself for so much blame about this. It's a Precision turbo, man, these things are bulletproof according to some here.. I would imagine some pics of your return line setup would be in order if you can. I wish ya luck here since warranty is out the window. Given it only has 17 miles on it, if I sold such equipment, I wouldn't worry so much about a month or 2 outside the warranty window..

LightningTeg

Quite the opposite. They make power but they have a bad reputation for reliability. I have a friend down the street who had his make it about 1000 miles before the same thing.

X2 on the drain, although if it was an over oiling issue, there would be plenty of warning via smoking out the exhaust side or leaking out the compressor side.

Boostage

Precision is going to tell you that its because of oil contamination then send you a bill.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I guess I'm curious. Failure how? Turbine seizure from starvation (which can be from a small piece of babbit or carbon in the oil itself, that isn't a part of the rest of the oil's condition... BTW that is still considered as "contamination", in which oil analysis would show nothing). Any signs like smoking? oil residue? bluing of the turbine shaft?

As much as everyone knows my position on PTE in general, there are some things that owner /user HAVE to be sure are right (and are out of PTE's control) before pointing the finger, warranty or not.

With that said, that lower number of cycles points to some other things, but again, may need to see.

As for Precision saying No to -4 no restrictor on Journal Bearing, they still aren't intelligent to ask what your oil pressure is at cold start. At 90psi cold, even Turbonetics with their built-in restrictors only work up to 75psi, wouldn't help you. You were right the 1st time with the .060"-.065" on your PTE in this case.

They make money, I'll give them that..

EsotericImage

iTrader: (8)

One thing I find frustrating is when someone pays more for a name brand part (besides PTE) and the thing takes a ****. Try and ask the company why the part failed and they're typical reply was user/instal error..

Just like Mac said, They make the money, your stuck with a useless paperweight. This is what pisses me off, No one stands behind their product.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I can understand that, however, look at the nature of a turbocharger. The manufacturer (one with proper QC) can only go so far as to ensuring that a product capable of doing what a turbo does without the owner having a high level of culpability. The manufacturer cannot hold the hand of the installer for their installation period.

With the manufacturing costs of these from legitimate makers going up, the days of any "no questions asked" type warranty are over, if there ever were any. It's not a T.V. or a stereo. This is a complex piece of equipment, in which the installer is major component of the success or failure of the component. You're not just plugging it in, and letting the item do its work. The INSTALLER MUST SHOW DUE DILIGENCE in order for any reasonable probability of operation to stay high. Now, this doesn't mean the turbo can still be of low-quality construction, but it does mean that the user must use more information than even what the maker can provide. It's not Precision's car...it's the owner's.

In a world of consumers that are quick to point the finger at anyone but themselves, they must understand that 1) much of the time, it is about comparative liability; that blame can be on at minimum, both parties , and not just one.. 2) good service from a company doesn't necessarily mean FREE service to remedy a situation.

Just educating the turbo community about the turbo business

ESP.net

Below are some more pictures. I cannot find much of any metal sparkle out the compressor to IC piping. I am not seeing any in the intercooler as well. Think I may be okay for now motor wise. Below is my drainage. Nothing new how I did my old setup with sc6176e with no issues.

Exhaust side has rust... only thing can think is it had been slightly rubbing for some time. Total of 17 miles in about 1.5 years so few up street drives. No smoke ever. However on the dyno there might of been some white smoke. Upon start up but went away asap. Then made some pulls and about 4 runs into it took a crap. Only thing I can think is with rust over time a few pulls here and there and sitting...oil leakage slightly....?

Thoughts? Advice? -4? No restrictor? Precision says -4...

Shodan I appreciate your help on this...

I was prior told 62xx stuff and possibly even 64xx -3 should of worked fine....

ESP.net

The frustrating part is that it is a $8xx turbo.... I send it back to Precision it is over the 1 year waranttee... but yes has low miles lol 17 miles on it... If it needs a whole new cartridge Precision price is $900. So obviously you just buy a new turbo for cheaper....

I will be sending it back to them to inspect. I will wait to hear back from them. I do not want to install new turbo if same stuff will happen. But I am sure answer is seal went and then the shaft... got hot....

I am also debating going with the same turbo but ball bearing version. Because how I have been told the JB stuff Precision is trying to get out of just because of the failure rate. The internals are not as strong or as good as the old garrett stuff they used. So I am at a catch22 spend additional $600 or so over $8xx turbo to get ball bearing version....

It seems I have done everything right here.... I always pre primed the turbo....

Royal Purple oil believe 10-30

ESP.net

Shodan yes I even explained to them my application yesterday recently and it sees 90 on cold... semi warm around 60-50 and warm 30 or so.... Still answer was -4 no restrictor...

My turbo guro says -4 with .060 restrictor.... But I am at a point do -4 and new turbo fails under warantee but not right way to go about it....

What your thoughs Shodan? I don't drive the car much nice day street car and few passes down the track. Think JB turbo would be okay...
I had the car originally tuned.... about a year ago... no issues whatso ever.... held boost steady at 15 psi and made 475 whp and 373 trq... pump gas...
Before the dyno about a week ago changed the springs out. Was showing 15 psi on 10 lbs springs large red and small red 60mm tial. Too big of a gate. So dialed it back this time took small Red out and made 9 psi. Was going to go BBG this time around and also get my methanol injection flowing. Didn't get that far though.

2kdrift

simple....dont buy another precision, go garrett or borg warner

LightningTeg

Exactly. I wouldn't do business with them if they cant learn from their mistakes of giving a one size fits all answer for oil feeds.

h2b_196_whp

yep i would go garret if they dont want to stand behind there product. those GTX turbos are really nice.

havent heard anything bad about them. be ready to for out 2k though.

ESP.net

Yes I have called around few people yesterday most say GTX turbos are nice... failure rate lil to none. They set up the feeds right.

But yesssss expensive. I also don't road race the car or extensive heat. I have always used journal bearings... my sc6176e was a good turbo...

I am leaning towards same turbo... even going with bb version would be pushing on what Id like to spend...

To me just seems to be a freak thing that happened....

There was a slight white smoke upon on dyno but then cleared right up... so didn't think much of it... I can't imagine that -3 line would be too much oil?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

No. See, you're looking too much at the feed line itself and not at the oil pressure at the turbocharger itself (although I can see where the correlation can exist.)

Whether you use -4AN or -3AN line, the fact is you're going to need to regulate (I like that word even better than "restrictor") the oil pressure at the turbocharger's oil channels itself. If you're using the right type AND size restrictor for oil flow, it won't matter if you're a -3AN or -4AN, because the fitting will slow the oil volume and speed down to where it is consistant whether or not you're at 90psi cold start or 15psi warm temperature.

Your "old" SC6176 was a Garrett model, in which the internals are much beefier than the current generation JB Precision, even though it's utilization of aerodynamics and fluidynamics is much improved over the older models.

You're looking at purpose as though you're not road racing or using it for an abusive purpose. If this is a street/drag car, you couldn't be more wrong, no matter what the internet lore tries to have you believe.

Yes, not driving "that often" does help the issue of this not doing so well after 17 miles, but really, this information, plus your photos tell me a couple of things.

1) When you stored the turbo, it wasn't in its original bag and in a dry area the entire time. oxidized rust is a HORRIFYING thing to have on the interior of the volute of a turbine housing, and can throw off the clearances on the turbine wheel greatly. It doesn't take much to destroy a blade or have FOD within the system when it's rusted like that. Before installing it on the car, the turbine housing should have been removed, and had a little green scotch-brite applied to it. Nothing aggressive, just to clean the surfaces a little.

2)You still haven't stated in what way did it "die". Did the rotating assembly seize in some way? was there any wheel-to-housing contact? (Huge loud squeals as wheel rpm increased/decreased) Oil residue anywhere? You stated there were "shavings" near the I/C piping? .. Again, details along with how long the turbo was running is essential here.

3) Turbos die in such short notice (like a few miles or cycles), really because of something interfering with the rotating assembly somehow.

When turbos start to rotate in positive boost, they will just keep doing it once it's started, or some outside influence will affect it's behaviour immediately; and yes, that could mean oil starvation due to contamination. (which is messed up, because even with oil analysis, there's no mysterious "anomaly" or high content of X component in the oil to cause something like that.. It's not CSI here, people )

99% of the time it's that one tiny piece of crap, babbit, carbon or something that did just enough damage to block an oil passage or within the feed line itself. And by the time you take it all apart, the carbon babbit fell to the floor or off somewhere outside the immediate part of the oil system. Not in the pan, not at the oil pump, just within the system itself.. or not..

I've had many people get frustrated because they didn't perform a thorough changeout of their equipment.. One person in particular with a problem had just put on turbo, after turbo , after turbo, from 3 turbo companies. All of them starved because the user didn't think to clean the **** out of his oil feed line. It turned out that oil feed line's interior shielding was breaking down due to its age, and kept interfering with the oil's flow pattern.. I mean he changed EVERYTHING, but this line, and he was still killing turbochargers. see what I mean?

When do these failures usually happen? Right when an engine is FRESHLY assembled. You'd think it's all clean , in a clean room, yada yada, everything would be fine, right? NO. That's the time when the most contaminates occur within an engine, when it's exposed to the elements including good air. This is why I have always recommended, for god's sake use an inline oil filter.. Hell, even the OEM factory cars have them, and should be cleaned. Just because you were lucky the 1st time, doesn't mean you will be again.
It doesn't matter if you're a journal bearing or ball-bearing CHRA.

In fact, with the DBB CHRA, the starvation from contamination is MORE likely to happen, because the orifice of the restrictor is even smaller than with a journal bearing.

The reason why you see (at least w/ Garrett & Turbonetics) DBB last longer is because of the required supplemental equipment that is needed to have them run a long time. They don't want to take the chance of destroying their $$$$ turbo, so they (for the most part) follow the instructions!!! Run water lines, run the right restrictor, check oil return line, etc..

So, simply changing to a DBB ceramic system may give you piece of mind, but it doesn't mean it's the solution to it all. Especially a PTE "air cooled" DBB. Yes, it was a good innovative idea to try and use air access to cool the CHRA down, but it was to garner sales because of the public not wanting to invest in themselves in the right equipment. If they can save a few bucks on supplemental equipment, they can put more money towards the turbo, right? .. But it does no good, if there's no good access to air, or the gills aren't efficient enough to do it's job.. And then you STILL didn't change the oil feed line itself..

*WARNING soap box rant.*
Many here look at water lines and special fittings (now readily available) as just cost prohibitive, and unnecessary. ("I don't circuit", "I don't drive it much", "I'm only a street car". Sound familiar? ..

Running without these components (for the most part) is a lot like driving without a radiator and bragging about how you can rev to 9500 rpms.. You'd never think to do that right? So why run something 20 times that speed without water also? Because you don't drive that much?..

I'm in the process of getting my wife's sister with her 3 kids as a home-maker'/soccer mom to have her 2008 Saab 93 with 190,000 miles fitted with 2 Go-Pros. One in the cabin and one on the roof. This is to show how stop/go traffic, sudden stops, quick shut downs, traffic jams, and the kids abuse of the car still get her to through everyday. She's not an enthusiast, doesn't know crap about engines, (much less turbos), and yet for over 8 years and 190,000 miles, still manages to run on the same turbo everyday ALL DAY. All she does is change the oil and fluids. And you know what, they run water lines, filter screens on the stock oil feed lines, and that's it. Yes, they're Garretts, but also, that's REAL driving.
*End soap box rant*

Summation

So, bottom line is this.. Focus on the oil feed line itself, by cleaning it or replacing it entirely. Get that out of the equation for "contamination". Then look DEEP into the purpose of your car, if it's on the street, run the damn water lines whether you're JB or DBB. Mitigate your own possibility of self-destruction.

Yes, you ARE going through extensive heat. At 80mph on a healthy tuned engine, your EGTs with NO ENGINE LOAD are easily at over 1400*-1500*F, in which about 900*F is in the CHRA... And that's just CRUSING! That's not even getting into boost yet!!

But it does mean it's time to cowboy up and use something else. But check your equipment first!! otherwise you'll possibly go through this issue repeatedly.

Is it worth almost $2K to invest in one of the most important components of the build to make sure it stays healthy? And I don't mean $2k into the turbo alone, I mean almost $2K in turbo and supplemental equipment. I would think so.

Sorry for the long post. If you're interested, I have a visual example from what I mean from a user we all have gotten to know over the last 4 years as a perfect example.

ESP.net

White smoke upon firing up on dyno. Went away. Didn't think much on it. Made boost ran fine few pulls then didnt. Yes turbo went... has tons of up and down and side to side play not much back and fourth.

Turbo was stored in the bag in the box. Until used. Bought new Real Street. No play upon install. Mint. Installed it. Tuned it about a year ago. Ran great 475 whp and 373 trq at 15 psi. Garaged it. Fired it up every few weeks. drove it a few times down the street. No issues at all.

Changed oil a couple months ago. No signs of issue.

I will be draining the oil, taking the feed off the sandwhich, and taking the turbo off.

I had my SC6176e rebuilt by precision around 07-08 ish. Before I had it installed. Bought it used. Piece of mind. Different car. Think this was after the Garrett internals era....

Few people have said -4 no issues... no restrictor... some say -3... so... I am thinking maybe -4. I will probably get same turbo again. JB. Yes I will have the turbo inspected for piece of mind to exactly see. Yes I understand there is a lot of variables... contamination... etc. I am sure I will find a better answer more I dig here...

I have purchased new oil feed fittings -3 and -4 from B&R with matching restrictors .060 if need be. Rather have parts on hand. So new feed is going in. I had stealthmode before. Straight to Bend on feed. The bend was okay to turbo but probably not ideal.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I mean, that's great that you're getting quality fittings and all but...Okay, you do realize that whether you use a - 4an or a -3AN line, if it's going to the same size restrictor size fitting to regulate oil pressure .060", the size feed line does not matter, right?

When you say "died with shaft play," did you pull the housings off and check to see if oil was everywhere? If not, it likely died from starvation, and a restrictor is only going to make it worse..

Send it for a rebuild (or at least get it inspected before deciding on a rebuild) with a diagnosis of cause of death before you start throwing restrictors at this.. you don't know what the cause is yet..

What you're doing is equivalent to driving on a dark road with no map or GPS, and you expect to use THE FORCE to lead you safely through the dark.

ESP.net

Yes will be taking turbo most likely to a local turbo rebuild place to inspect and diagnose. Or I will send to Precision. Sadly when I talked to local shop they seemed very knowledgable over the phone to be able to diagnose exactly and where it happend and why. Worth the hour rate to find out.

Side note dumped engine oil... have mfactory magnetic plug. Has a couple small tiny flakes on it with small amount of lube. Engine only has 17 miles on it. Fully Built. I see nothing to scarry to be alarmed about engine wise on fresh build. Oil looks clean and maybe slight dark. I will atleast quick flush the motor oil when new turbo goes on. Compression test done before dyno few days ago showed same numbers as before 195 warm across the board 9.6-1 compression ratio.

I will take off the oil return and inspect and clean.

I do not think it is necessary to drop the pan? What your thoughts shodan? At the moment don't see tons to be worried about.

2kdrift

@OP I would do a -4 no restrictor if it smokes you know you have to use a restrictor, as opposed to starving the turbo of oil you will have little to no warning at all

MY BEP turbo uses a -4, I was recommended to use -3 (by go-auto) but I chose to go with the manufactures recommendation - no issues whatsoever

freshly built engines is completely normal to see shavings, its recommended to do multiple oilchanges. I did my first oil change at 100 miles (this was the break in period) then did several more at 300 and 500 miles.

ESP.net

Yea precision says -4. Talked to Go-Auto today -3. KS says -4. I will probably stick with manufacture precision -4. Takes poop its covered. Still doing research on it.

2kdrift

I wouldn't go that far...remember who your dealing with and their history for screwing people over even within the warranty period

pogeeboy27

iTrader: (3)

Brand new motor and you're willing to do a crapshoot on it? It would be wise to drop the oil pan and clean it. Even if there's nothing in there, at least you have the peace of mind that there's less FOD going into your CHRA.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I agree. that's a horrible way to look at this. Like I said in the PM to you, it's not a T.V. so, don't expect to get "covered". That's still considered negligence. I wouldn't warranty anything with that thought process either.

Contrary to popular belief its the "Fresh builds" that have the most contaminants and babbit in them, not the ones that have been together a while.

You still aren't look at cleaning / checking the oil feed line, which is actually more important than the return line or even the pan.

Precision will only rebuild Precision turbos. Your local source may have the ability to do it, but Precision doesn't sell individual parts. If they use Garrett parts, some may fit, most won't.

What did your local source hypothesize as the cause of death was over the phone? You're still not divulging the important facts, here. But.. In the end, you do what you feel is right. You just might be on this thread, yet again.

LightningTeg

Wait, this turbo was put on a fresh motor and the oil was never changed after the first startup orr?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

An investlment in an inline oil filter would prevent even more damage. Most come in -4AN though.

like for example:

Earl's inline oil filter. A MUST for turbocharged applications, especially NEWLY BUILT ENGINES!!