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Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

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Old 03-14-2017, 03:09 PM   #1
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Icon5 Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

First let me start off by saying hello everyone! I am new to honda-tech, but not new to cars or or forums in general (as you may have guessed by the user name).

So, with my newly added membership i am also newly starting a build on my first ever b16a2! My plan is to build(or for lack of a better term, add pieces to) my first turbocharged b series. Now ive been all over the internet and seen all types of setups, but i have made my decision (already bought) on the turbo and manifold i plan to run. Parts still left that i would like some input on (thats where you come in) would be:

- fuel injectors? I have a set of dsm 450cc with the required resisters, but may need to upgrade (read below)
- fuel? Since my motor is stock, what will gain the most performance without sacrificing its integrity. I have considered meth injection, e85, c85, vp m1 etc. Really could use some help here!
- fuel pump? Have considered going with a walbro 255, but depending on the fuel setup im not sure if i need to?
- intercooler setup? This has been a struggle. Id like to run a water 2 Air setup, but haven't found any concrete proof this is a better option than typical Air 2 Air
- intercooler piping size? I would like to run something in the 2.5 - 3" range, but maybe theres a reason not to?

background on the car: Oem rebuilt b16a2, this includes head, pistons, rods, crank, sleeves you get the idea. Im also running the lsd b16 trans. i do have a spare LS trans that i can use if need be. Also running a chipped p28 on a crome tune currently.

Now for the turbo im running is an ITS .60 trim t3. I decided to go a bit on the big side here because i wanted to have room to grow i.e. built block in the future.
As for the manifold im running a schedule 40 steel tubular up-mount divided flange with dual waste gates. What a mouthful! (i plan to run dual waste gates to keep things as safe as possible)

This build may seem overkill for a stock b16, but id like to see what kind of boundaries i can push with this setup. Also note: I do/will NOT daily drive this car! Its strictly mean to be a weekend runner with occasional track use.

Congratulations if you made it through all of that! Once again, thank you guys for any input. If i missed anything please feel free to to ask! Im hoping this thread sparks debate and gets quite scientific (Aerospace major). Id love to document this build if it generates enough interest, so fire away!
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Not trying to be a dick but you need to do more research all these questions have been asked hundreds of times, further more you did not state a power goal so kinda hard to answer these directly

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
- fuel injectors? I have a set of dsm 450cc with the required resisters, but may need to upgrade (read below)
These can be used however it depends on your power goals, depends on fuel used and fuel pressure roughly 300 on pump gas and even less on e85

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
- fuel? Since my motor is stock, what will gain the most performance without sacrificing its integrity. I have considered meth injection, e85, c85, vp m1 etc. Really could use some help here!
If you have access to E85 it would definetly be worthwhile, it help make more power and still keep your motor safe - just make sure you have the proper fuel system to support it (with e85 you will be using more fuel ie bigger fuel pump bigger injectors)

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
- fuel pump? Have considered going with a walbro 255, but depending on the fuel setup im not sure if i need to?
i always recomend a new fuel pump on any build, technically the stock pump can handle a bit over 200Hp but you really dont want to risk that failing, My walbro 255 still works great after 7 years or so I am very happy with it, it would be my first recomendation for most builds. there are other brands availible that im sure work just as good.

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
- intercooler setup? This has been a struggle. Id like to run a water 2 Air setup, but haven't found any concrete proof this is a better option than typical Air 2 Air
No benefits in a A2W, keep it simple and get a nice front mount A2A

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
- intercooler piping size? I would like to run something in the 2.5 - 3" range, but maybe theres a reason not to?
Very dependant on power goals, I use 2" hotside and 2.5" cold (intake) side @400HP

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
Now for the turbo im running is an ITS .60 trim t3. I decided to go a bit on the big side here because i wanted to have room to grow i.e. built block in the future.
As for the manifold im running a schedule 40 steel tubular up-mount divided flange with dual waste gates. What a mouthful! (i plan to run dual waste gates to keep things as safe as possible)
Ebay turbo, Im guessing the manifold is also an ebay since you did not specify any fabricator.....Terrible choice IMO, but as you said your mind is made up so good luck with that. Not necessary at all to use 2 wastegates based on the turbo size

Bigest suggestion would be to start reading more, google is your friend,
and then theres This
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Thanks for the reply. I did not specify what my horsepower goal was and i should have. I am hoping to make somewhere in the 300-350 range which i am under the impression the stock b16 should be able to do. As far as the injector size and fuel pump goes, i knew that was all reliant on the type of fuel id be using. So i did plan to use the stock fuel pump as i did read that the stock pump was supposedly adequate for up to 400hp, i see thats not the case now. As to going to e85 (its plentiful in my area) i also considered using meth injection as a cost based alternative. However i was aware that there is caveats to each.

I wanted to use an Air 2 Water setup as this isn't particularly a street car, but would see some street use i.e. driving to and from the drag strip. Also i had read about its configuration being more beneficial for turbo spool up (correct me if i'm wrong). But as i said i haven't found any definitive proof, thus not not sure if my application applies. For the intercooler piping size, again id like to stick with whats best to keep my turbo as responsive as possible.

As for the turbo and manifold, neither are of the ebay variety. I personally don't trust any of it as far as i can throw it lol. My turbo is an innovative turbo systems 60 trim t3, which might be a bit over kill but it was had for a deal that i could not pass up. The manifold is custom made by a shop out of Florida who had used it for one of their drag cars where they decided to go a different route and now its in my hands. Again it was just too cheap to pass up. I originally had planned to acquire a ramhorn style but sadly at 2-3x the cost this just wasn't an option.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Like the other guy said no need for water to air intercooler, I would just stick with an air to air. Water to air intercoolers are a pain in the butt, even if it's drag only you will literally be draining the water and re-filling with ice after each pass. 2.5 inch intercooler piping is just fine I made 900WHP on 2.5 inch, so you will be fine with that.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

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My turbo is an innovative turbo systems 60 trim t3, which might be a bit over kill but it was had for a deal that i could not pass up. The manifold is custom made by a shop out of Florida who had used it for one of their drag cars where they decided to go a different route and now its in my hands. Again it was just too cheap to pass up. I originally had planned to acquire a ramhorn style but sadly at 2-3x the cost this just wasn't an option.
My apologies I never heard of that brand before, looks like they went out of buisiness as of 2007, but other then that they seem legit ex workers went on to start comp turbo from what I read. there are really only 4-5 companies that manufacturer legit turbos and I was not familiar with the name.

you seem to be on the right track, skip the air to water and research further your parts list you may as well go 750cc or 1000cc injectors IMO with a e85 safe fuel pump similar in size to a walbro 255 for those goals ... fuel injector calc is coming up with 660cc for 350hp and e85

Listen to AZ hes experienced with drag and such, spool can be helped by the fact that you use less piping on a a2w setup generally but that benefit is off set by the point he made. additionally spool does not matter for drag racing the only thing that matters is max HP. This is why the fastest hondas use VERY large turbos lag is not even a factor for this type of use.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Understood, thanks again guys. Yes, when i last did the calculation for injector size i believe it was around 520cc. This was when i was aiming for 300hp using pump gas and considering using a smaller turbo that i already had, which probably would have been at or close to its limit anyway. I figured i could make more than that with e85/meth, so i just decided to upgrade while i was at it. So ill probably go with the 1000cc so i have some wiggle room for the future.

Looks like ill go with the a2a setup. Especially since a2w iat results seem to vary so much. Ill see what i can find.

Also, i wanted to get to this point before i asked, does anyone have experience with vp's c85? I ask because of their claim that it makes up to 4% more power and torque than conventional e85 (as per the website)... worth noting also is the difference in specific gravity and overall weight between it and e85. Id imagine with a few gallons of the stuff in the tank it may add up, even as negligible as it seems. Suppose it all comes down to price though.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

I forgot to add that my exhaust mani has the dual 38mm waste gate housings as its a divided setup - one on each collector. Im aware that they do sell block off kits, but this just didnt seem to make much sense since id be forcing exhaust gasses back through one of the collectors. What do you think?
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

personally i would run a different manifold. a b16 needs as much help as it can get spooling a turbo (relative to other b series) because they dont produce much as much exhaust gas as a 1.8-2.0 liter. using a top mount (or any long primary manifold) is going to further delay spool/transient response. i would just use a shelf log manifold with center wastegate placement (go-autoworks, inline pro, or even ebay.) theyre cheaper, spool quickly, and will save you money cuz youll only need one wastegate, and wastegates arent free.

edit: C85 is cheap compared to other race fuels, but really expensive compared to pump E85. i would use regular E85. C85 is designed for guys that need really consistent ethanol content.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Since you're concerned about spool, dump that topmount for something smaller. You'll thank me later

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced...-dyno-2052996/ <--- my experience with topmount vs a shorty. Check the differences in dyno graphs

Shorty ramhorn
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

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Originally Posted by FormerDSMguy View Post
I forgot to add that my exhaust mani has the dual 38mm waste gate housings as its a divided setup - one on each collector. Im aware that they do sell block off kits, but this just didnt seem to make much sense since id be forcing exhaust gasses back through one of the collectors. What do you think?
Bad choice, Joyce.... For the size power and purpose you're using this for, it's the "worst of the worst" options. Listen to Schister66 as stated above, and check the FAQs again for those blue, underlined titles. One of them specifically goes into the exhaust manifold.
Why top mount? - Honda-Tech
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Old 03-16-2017, 03:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

Okay, I ABSOLUTELY APPRECIATE THE ADVICE, however i may not have been transparent enough on my goals. I apologize for that. Ill start by saying first that I am aware this manifold is not ideal for a "stock" b16, I purchased this manifold because IT WILL be of better use in the future. It was only meant to perform "well" whilst i acquire and finish the built motor that it, the turbo, and other parts will be swapped over to. Because the race motor is a long term goal, pushing the power and efficiency (within reason) of the b16 is the shorter - more obtainable goal. So im aware that these parts wont be utilized to there full potential and MAY actually hurt performance had i ONLY planned to build a high horsepower "stock" b16... hopefully i worded that correctly.

As I mentioned earlier, i did originally plan to run a ram horn style manifold (bwr in particular) but the costs were just to high for what i was hoping to spend and couldn't find a good alternative. So i then found this up mount. I picked it up for less than half what a bwr would have been... i did consider an ebay cast log manifold at one point, but knew i was going to need to up grade eventually so it didn't seem logical. FWIW this forum is what made me decide to buy, as it aligned with my end goal anyway Why top mount? - Honda-Tech As for everything else they were all necessary upgrades for what i had planned long term anyway.

Hopefully i don't come off ungrateful, I really do appreciate the input
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Suggestions Needed: FormerDSMGuy's B16A2 Turbo Build

No, you came off fine. If this is your final decision, then ok.. In the end, you asked for suggestions and this is what you got. So, no.. you're absolutely fine.

But I will say that unless your goal is over 600whp for this B16 and your purpose is specifically for drag racing for higher rpm, it's not a good choice.
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