Wopsicle69

A friend of mine just built an eg hatch with an h22 and decided to turbo it. Im curious if its missing anything or things need to be changed. Keep in mind that this setup will never push more than 6 psi on the stock motor. Also this setup is non-intercooled. Any input is appreciated

List of parts:

Ram Horn Style Manifold
Small Nissan (t3?) turbo
TurboSmart BOV
OBX FMU
DSM Blue Tops (410cc?)
OBX Wastegate with 6psi Spring
Full 2.5" Exhaust
2.5" Charge Pipes

Should anything be added? This is a low low budget turbo setup.

What adjustments should be made to the timing?
Are those injectors too big for this setup?
Could this setup continue to run on 91 octane, or should he run 94 just to be on the safe side?

Thanx.

The Weather Man

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
List of parts:

Ram Horn Style Manifold
Small Nissan (t3?) turbo
TurboSmart BOV
OBX FMU
DSM Blue Tops (410cc?)
OBX Wastegate with 6psi Spring
Full 2.5" Exhaust
2.5" Charge Pipes
Thanx.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Alright. Here we go.

First - change the turbo
Get rid of the FMU
get rid of the wastegate'
add a hondata or engine management
get some better injectors - not some damn dsm injectors
Get a walboro 255 lph fuell pump

Have it tuned - then it'll be fine.

Wopsicle69

I agree with you 110% BUT!!! Alot of this stuff is freebies and my buddy doesnt wanna spend a whole lot of money.

This setup was intended to give the h22 a little bit more pep, not too make crazy power and blow peoples doors off. Its just to have some fun with.

The items that ive listed are pretty much staying, my question was if anything was missing.

The fuel pump is on its way soon.

Whats wrong with the injectors? Are they not sufficient enough for this application?

Also, when the car is idling its puffing greyish smoke (not coolant, cuz its still full to the top) but when you get on it, all smoke dissappears. Any ideas?

99B16Si

dsm injectors are bigger than preludes (in most cases) your getting grey smoke because its running rich as hell. going into boost is leaning it out some im sure but larger injectors in conjunction with an fmu is going to make you run rich.

look into crome or hondata as they are both free engine managments and work great in combination with a knowledgable tuner. youll be able to get rid of the fmu also

GaRn

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The Weather Man &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Alright. Here we go.

First - change the turbo
Get rid of the FMU
get rid of the wastegate'
add a hondata or engine management
get some better injectors - not some damn dsm injectors
Get a walboro 255 lph fuell pump

Have it tuned - then it'll be fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>

what are you talking about?

DSM injectors are fine, if you want to be sure have them cleaned and balanced locally..

I am using DSM injectors, they are 440cc injectors(some say 450)..

Look into CROME or Uberdata to tune, both of which I have used, CROME is probably the way to go nowadays..

You will need an OBD1 vtec ecu, P30 or P72 or the like, socket it and get a chip burner or realtime unit to make changes.. All of this replaces your FMU..

You aren't going to be able to just plug in 440cc injectors in places of your 240's or whatever H22's have, it might run, but you will get horrible gas mileage and a horrible running car..

The rest of your setup sounds fine..

Wopsicle69

Converting to a p28 has already been discussed, but my friend doesnt wanna dish out another $100+ for the ecu, and then dyno time would be another issue of spending money. This is a budget budget turbo build, lol.

Heres my question....

Given that the car runs good under load (blowing no smoke) is there any way we can fool the FMU to lower the fuel pressure at idle and then return to its normal operating condition under load? Im assuming that we will need to use vacuum, but is it possible to do what im talking about?


Also, GaRn, what have you done for timing? Did you tune it on the Crome or did you retard with the distributor? or ignition box? And how many degrees have you set it at?

Thanx for all the input, its greatly appreciated.

bubs

If you have your mind set on the FMU setup, then you need to use the stock injectors as the DSM's will make the engine run extremely rich.

Also, you should get an inline fuel pump to keep up with the high fuel pressure that an FMU causes - otherwise you might lean out in the higher RPM's and cause the motor to detonate.

The other piece you'll need is a missing link or some other map bypass device to keep the map sensor from seeing positive pressure - otherwise you'll throw a CEL and it will run like crap.

I also noticed that you didn't list an intercooler - I would seriously consider buying one. A turbo that small will be putting out some serious heat and will cause your motor to detonate much easier.

From my experience, you get what you pay for, so don't be too surprised when you're rebuilding the motor in a month or two. Good luck

bubs

One more thing: you should probably do a compression test on that motor before you do anything, especially if it's smoking right now. If it's not at least 190-200psi in each cylinder with no less than a 5-10psi variance, you're probably asking for trouble.

Wopsicle69

thanks alot bubs, yoru info is a great help. Were gonna try to see what we an do to increase vacuum at idle to trick the fmu to deliver less fuel. Possible??

Also, the motor was compression tested at the time of purchase showing 180-185 psi across the board.

The intercooler issue will be dealt with soon, something from a supercoupe or other front mount will be used, but for the time being we didnt run one.

A fuel pump is also on the way.

As for the map sensor issue, we have an intake manifold off a previously boosted h22a4 with the missing link on the t.b, so were probably gonna use that. If not, im sure a GM map sensor cant be too hard to come by.

Im still missing info on the issue of timing. Should we retard it via the distributor? If so, how many degrees?

All the info comin is great guys, thanks alot.

93supercoupe

lemme know when it blows up.Ill buy parts.

turboH22Aakkord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Converting to a p28 has already been discussed, but my friend doesnt wanna dish out another $100+ for the ecu, and then dyno time would be another issue of spending money. This is a budget budget turbo build, lol.

.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sell the FMU and you'll have enough for a chipped ECU I run uberdata and i tought myeslf how to tune with a wideband and i love it.. you'll get used to it and it will be better in the end...

bubs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks alot bubs, yoru info is a great help. Were gonna try to see what we an do to increase vacuum at idle to trick the fmu to deliver less fuel. Possible??

....

Im still missing info on the issue of timing. Should we retard it via the distributor? If so, how man</TD></TR></TABLE>

More vacuum won't help. The FMU won't provide any extra fuel until there is positive pressure in the manifold - when it's in vac., it works like a "pass through" design and does nothing to add more fuel. Your best bet is to use the stock injectors - the FMU is designed to work with them.

As far as timing, you may be able to use the distributor on an h22a1 (I honestly don't know, never had an h22a1), but I don't think the timing is adjustable on an h22a4 unless you use some kind of engine management such as hondata or a dedicated ignition controller like the MSD boost timing master. But the MSD units are expensive and you might as well go the chipped ECU route if you're spending that much.

Wopsicle69

We decided to go back to the stock injectors today (285cc) and that did solve the rich mixture issue.

Now we have a problem with raw oil burning somewhere between the turbo - downpipe area. We have been running the car about downpipe, could there be an issue with back pressure causing the car to burn raw oil? Could it be possible that our feed line is too small and is supplying too much oil pressure for the turbo to handle? It's not the rings b/c we did another compression test and its much better now, 210-215 psi across the board.


As for the timing issue, this is a 93 JDM H22a motor, i only mentioned the H22a4 b/c that manifold was equipped with the map sensor link that we needed to use on the H22a motor. I know we can retard the timing, but i want to know how many degrees we should go to be safe?


Thanx H-T!

safe driver

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree with you 110% BUT!!! Alot of this stuff is freebies and my buddy doesnt wanna spend a whole lot of money.

This setup was intended to give the h22 a little bit more pep, not too make crazy power and blow peoples doors off. Its just to have some fun with.</TD></TR></TABLE>

in your situation, i'd sell the turbo stuff and buy a used dry nitrous kit. it'll be less trouble and less of a headache trying to make sub-par parts work properly.

bubs

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
...
Now we have a problem with raw oil burning somewhere between the turbo - downpipe area. We have been running the car about downpipe, could there be an issue with back pressure causing the car to burn raw oil? Could it be possible that our feed line is too small and is supplying too much oil pressure for the turbo to handle? It's not the rings b/c we did another compression test and its much better now, 210-215 psi across the board.
...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It could be a couple of things:

-Turbo needs a rebuild

-Do you still have the valve cover breather (pcv valve) connected to the intake manifold? If so, you need to remove the two lines (one connects to the intake manifold, the other connects to the intake) and put breathers on them instead or use a catch can setup (check the faq). Otherwise, the crankcase will build up too much pressure and won't let the oil return drain as fast as it needs to.

-Oil return is too small. Should be at least a -10an size line. Oil feed could be too big, a -3an line is pretty standard.

-Oil return is too low on the oil pan - the return port needs to be as high as possible on the oil pan or the turbo won't drain properly.

If that turbo's shot, you'd probably be better off to get a new turbo and save yourself the headaches of buying a used one that will eventually need a rebuild - I know from experience

Wopsicle69

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bubs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It could be a couple of things:

-Turbo needs a rebuild

-Do you still have the valve cover breather (pcv valve) connected to the intake manifold? If so, you need to remove the two lines (one connects to the intake manifold, the other connects to the intake) and put breathers on them instead or use a catch can setup (check the faq). Otherwise, the crankcase will build up too much pressure and won't let the oil return drain as fast as it needs to.

-Oil return is too small. Should be at least a -10an size line. Oil feed could be too big, a -3an line is pretty standard.

-Oil return is too low on the oil pan - the return port needs to be as high as possible on the oil pan or the turbo won't drain properly.

If that turbo's shot, you'd probably be better off to get a new turbo and save yourself the headaches of buying a used one that will eventually need a rebuild - I know from experience </TD></TR></TABLE>

before the turbo went on we checked it for shaft play and it showed nothing. This turbo was on a car last season and did not leak a drop.

None of the pcv to the valve cover or manifold are connected, so i know that theres not too much crankcase pressure

Im not sure with the sizes of the lines but i will indeed check those out.

The drain is as high as it can go on the pan.

I just thought of this this morning, were using synthetic Mobil 1 (10w30) in the motor, is that maybe too thin of an oil for the seals inside the turbo causing the oil to leak onto the downpipe and burn?

Note: The oil only burns at idle, anything under load is good.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by safe driver &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

in your situation, i'd sell the turbo stuff and buy a used dry nitrous kit. it'll be less trouble and less of a headache trying to make sub-par parts work properly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You dont get that sexy sound of an atmospheric vented waste gate when your on the bottle. Besides I think my friend might be scured of the juice. lol.

bubs

I ran Valvoline synthetic 10w30 in my turbo Prelude for ~10,000 miles with no problems, so you should be alright.

I can't think of anything else that would cause a problem if everything else checks out OK. Make sure the PCV valve isn't still in the breather hole either since it will close unless it has a vac. pulling on it.

Good luck

dixie Normas7

HA HA HA

GaRn

To answer the ignition question, the proper way to do it would be an ignition box like MSD, but you would be better off cost wise and tuning wise(by far) just going with CROME free, buying a wideband, and tuning it yourself.. I tuned ignition via CROME, just used base ignition, then used a step retard(0-3 psi was retarded .15 per psi, 3-5 was like .35, and 5-8 was around .55, these are just guess, I don't remember was I had exactly).. This may or may not be on the edge(factory timing is rather leniant anyways) but I have water/alc injection which helps out with timing for me..

I would recommend MUCH less timing without it..

You can get an ecu for much cheaper than $100.. look on ebay..

sell the FMU and go that route, you won't regret it.. you have SO many more options at your fingertips!

Wopsicle69

Everybody thanks so much for all your input, you've all been a great help.

We found that the turbo was shot so the motor is going back to stock.

But again, all the info was greatly appreciated.

Thanx H-T.

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wopsicle69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Converting to a p28 has already been discussed, but my friend doesnt wanna dish out another $100+ for the ecu, and then dyno time would be another issue of spending money. This is a budget budget turbo build, lol. </TD></TR></TABLE>

"budget" + slapped together freebie parts + cheap owner = motor go boom

How smart does this sound?