wantboost

iTrader: (2)

So ive been reading a lot on this topic and I think we've all seen Muckmans wonder thread... but I havent come across any definitive data on examples of the topic.

For this example lets say the base motor in question is an ls/vtec. B18b block and b16 head. Let's try and stay away from modifications to either unless the data will change the efficiency and pumping losses of the motor

The power goal is modest, 400-450 with the absolutely best powerband possible

I want to know compression limits for the follow fuel and meth injection combos

Assume all meth injection mixture ratios are 70% pure methanol and 30% distilled water

93 octane
93 + meth injection
E85
E85 and meth (if it's even needed)
M85 (85% ethanol blended with 15% 93 octane)

Now the last fuel I listed ive been doing a lot of research on. Apparently the added gasoline greatly improves lubricant properties, especially in the upper cylinder area. The gasoline also stabilizes the methanol, giving its flame a color and reducing most of methanols corrosive properties

Unfortunately for me, obtaining e85 is hard, tge closest station is 30 miles round trip and after that it's 50 miles one way to downtown Atlanta (I spend a lot of time there so maybe it's pheasable? I know a lot of people around me (especially the Evo/Supra crowd carries a 5 gallon jerrycan just in case) although I would probably be better served keeping a 55 gallon drum at home of e100 and blending from there (however I have nit checked local prices and availability in large drums)

Same goes with the m85... I can get methanol in 55 gallon drums all day long locally for 259-175 with the drum. I could then blend my own m85

My question though is (and one I cant find answers on) is how does m85 perform/how detrimental to the motor is it? I can always take my methanol drum and do lower blends, say 30-40% methanol

I'm just looking for the best fuel/meth injection combo that will allow high static compression while still supporting my power goals. I plan on running meth pre turbo (to dramatically drop turbo outlet temps) as well as direct port style to insure equal cylinder distribution.

So opinions/advice/constructive criticism? Right now all of these fuel ideas are just that, ideas

That being said, all components and lines that come into contact with methanol, whether as fuel or injection, will be hard coat anodized to prevent corrosion in the slightest bit.

I can provide the planned motor/head build if needed but like I said im looking for a general baseline for what the maximum static CR is with the choices I posted above

Maybe I'm over thinking it just a little bit but a few of the fuels such as m85 caught my eye, as well as the people blending them in different ratios

Remember though, methanol (pure) has an octane rating of 113
E85 is 102-105
93 is pretty obvious lol

The only drawback I see with m85 (or any blend of gasoline and methanol) is that while it has an amazing resistance to knock as well as the ability to cool the intake tract at or below ambient temps(why you never see high hp drag cars with intercoolers, that's how well methanol absorbs heat) is the added volume of fuel needed, even more than e85... so while power and torque production will be amazing, the rate of fuel consumption will be horrible... although maybe this wouldn't be so bad if the ratio of gasoline was higher


So like I said. .. just some thoughts. I'd really like to know what my static CR limits for each fuel is. Unless im overthinking and should just use 93 with the 70/30 meth or possibly inject pure methanol.


So tear my post/rambling idea apart and discuss. I have a link I bookmarked about gasoline, e85 and m85. I'll post it when I find it.

OneBadTurboCRV

This is another one of those pointless threads. The problem comes from WAY too many variables. The largest one being camshafts. We could all assUme different theories, but this speculation is just another moot point. I am sure some people will come on here and tote random BS answers, but this conversation is to open ended to come to a proper setup. Also, most of this information is readily available - you need to read between the lines and apply Honda characteristics to them. Easy enough.

On a side note, I am happy to see you made a thread for all of this foolishness rather than flooding other peoples threads with your hopes and dreams.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Well ive done tons of searching and turned up nil. Just the usual run low compression/you cant boost high compression motors crap

Im simply asking that for each fuel ive listed, what would be a comfortable high static compression ratio. I would prefer to run as high of a CR as possible

Here's the setup if it helps, however it is in a constant state of evolution

Block

B18b block
Stock sleeves
Probe I beam rods (might get aluminum rods)
81mm arias pistons somewhere between 10-10.5:1(will change if I can go higher)
Stock crank, cleaned and honed oil gallies, crank will be "butchered" a process where they square the counter weights, give the nose of the weights an airfoil shape that tapers to a knife edge at the rear, journals micro polished and oil outlets chamfered

Head

B16 head
Mildly ported
GSC T1 cams
Supertech dual springs and comp tool steel retainers
H22 LMAs
Enlarged oil feeds for cam lobe oiling rails as well as cam journal feeds
Custom 46mm itbs with custom plenum
Oiling setup

Stock pump (will be sent to Endyn for modifications) might do some witchcraft with the gears
Golden eagle sandwich plate for oil supply to head abd turbo oil feed (will have its own inline filter)
Moroso 90 degree adapter for remote filters
2 HAAS racing billet filter holders, each filter will have different filtration media to ensure the cleanest oil possible.
Those in turn will feed an oil cooler with built in thermostat bypass

Drivetrain (still lots to decide on)
Ls trans (something definitely needs to change here)
Competition clutch 9lb flywheel
Competition clutch stage 5 disk and pressure plate
LSD still undecided
Axles still undecided
Custom built trans cooling system (tilton pump, inline filter pre pump, setrab cooler with custom ducted fan, unit will run almost constantly to filter the fluid but a thermostat bypass will only allow fluid into the oil cooler once temps are reached)

Turbo system
Manifold unknown, I don't really like any currently available designs, most notably due to wastegate placements. No ramhorns or top mounts, will likely build my own
Turbo will be a gt30r with sonw tweaking thanks to TheShodan
2.5" hot pipe w/ a Greddy type r bov
Single backdoor PWR intercooler w/ centered endtanks. Core measures 24x12x3
3" downpipe running out through the pass. Side of the front bumper (maybe the hood) wastegate dumptube will also follow suit
Tial 38 or 44 wastegate. Given the pressure ratios I'll be running, with proper wastegate priority the 38 should be enough

Fueling and engine management

Aem ems
2 Bosch 044s feeding a surge tank which will feed a single a1000
Aeromotice fpr
8 injector setup
Primares are 240cc
Secondaries are 590cc and will only be used when engine loads demands it
This is to maintain driveability and the response issues nornally seen with a large single injector.

I think that covers most of it. As you can tell I want my setup to be as efficient as possible. This is not a drag car and will never see a drag strip. Its a daily driver that with a tire change and some dampening adjustments will do fast mountain runs as well as run countless laps around Road Atlanta and Atlanta Motorsports park.


So you can kind of see why I mentioned different fuel combos, l simply want to know what kind of static ratios I can run if I can obtain or blend my own e85, same for the methanol

SPOOLINmatt

i think methanol has even less energy than ethanol, prolly needlike m70 to try that one.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

It takes more fuel to equal 1 gallon of gas, just like ethanol

Gasoline 1.0000
E85. 1.3900
E100. 1.5000
Methanol 2.0100

however methanol burns so cleanly and efficiently that it offsets some of the additional fuel needed

Too bad I cant get the car to run on Jet A (kerosene) lol

Natural Aspirations

93 will work perfectly fine KISS

Runnerdown

Take a look at this link, it's great read in regards to this topic.

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2010-01-0619.pdf

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Where do you find such magical white papers lol

I've been doing some mild number crunching and on 93 octane with pre turbo methanol injection (gets converted to gasseous form by compression in the compressor volute when it absorbs copious amounts of heat from the charge air, then with "direct port" injection at the head, there should be enough methanol in the intake tract to substantially raise knock resistance and keep the combustion event in the cylinder linear and aggressive, due partially to the octane rating of methanol, it's clean and effective burning and the sheer volume of methanol each cylinder would contain

Now with 93 (e10) octane and my proposed methanol injection setup and the ratio of methanol to water, I'm positive I can run 10 5:1 at my planned power levels of 400-450 wheel horsepower.

I'm positive I can run much higher compression but don't want to find the threshold through repeated cycles of motor destruction and rebuilding, unless I find a stash of parts or someone who wants to fund the endeavor :p

Although a local shop that does a lot of high end R35 builds has been using cylinder pressure monitoring systems (spark plugs with pressure transducers) to see just how far they can push a certain setup/tune on a given fuel stock... I'm pretty good friends with the guys so maybe we can utilize this technology once I get the car built (on its first motor lol) I feel then and only then through direct monitoring of cylinder pressure trends (how aggressive pressure builds as well as peak pressure numbers) can we determine just how much compression I can run.

Of course I could run a higher static CR with a less aggressive timing profile/overall timing and still make the power I want, just a little more efficiently. However at a point you start reaching diminishing returns where the effort to be efficient just doesn't pay off.

OBRJosh

30miles round trip for E85 thats too far for you?? If so just grab Vp race fuel at the Track.. 93 will make plenty of power for the street with out the meth injection..

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Page 1 of my build thread..

Runnerdown

Its been saved in my bookmarks for so long I don't remember where I got it from. Great article, nothing better than a real deal engineering analysis loaded with data.

LightningTeg

Wish I saw that when I was still in school and was actively messing around with that terminology =/

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Its 30 miles in a direction I never go... so why would I want to limit where I can drive my car and have to go out of my way (in unreal traffic btw) every time I need to fill up. If I'm in downtown Atlanta there are a few stations spread around but again, nothing in my immediate area that would make e85 practical.. unless I got a barrel of e100 and a large fuel cell to make up for the decreased mileage/range

We have an account with VP from our racing and team dealings with motorcycles, superbike and supersportbikes in WERA and AMA (the bikes just sit now, iit's quite sad really but riding a 200whp liter bike on the street is insanity, but still fun lol)

But for the purposes of a street car that will see lots of miles, VP fuels aren't cost effective, especially if I have to fill up away from home.. I'd have to take one of the 5 gallon VP pales and keep it in the car

I've already got the 10-10.5 pistons so maybe I'll just try them and see what happens, as I'm mainly focused on torque production in the midrange, not top end power

Natural Aspirations

I'm making 460+ on 93 @11:1 and have locals who are doing the same/ similar no problem.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, no meth injection?

Natural Aspirations

I have an AEM methanol kit in my car but never actually used it. I planned for it but never had a need to use it on my stock sleeves.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

What elevation/ambient temps/humidity?

Natural Aspirations

Yeah.... Uhmmm that's going to depend a lot on where and when I'm driving, but it had never been an issue.

Balor_Gr

The best would be is find the higher octane ETHANOL FREE fuel and mix your own E20-E30.
Its not only octane rating that it counts.
Its (RON+MON)/2 for antiknock resistance (AKI)
AND RON-MON which is fuel sensitivity(big conversation)

88 fuel 91-92RON(ethanol free) fuel + 20% ethanol whould give around 98-99 RON with
good antiknock and good sensitivity.
Stations that sell 91 without ethanol is around 95 ron and with 30% Ethanol addition would kick ***.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

You can't find ethanol free fuels in Georgia

And in the US it's R+M/2 anyways

SPOOLINmatt

There's at least 4 eth free pumps in my county in GA

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Really? Im in forsyth county where Fulton/suwanee/johns creek/alpharetta/Duluth all meet and every station uses e10

Now I have some friends who own gas stations, I could probably get them to order a small batch of straight gas or even e85 for me, I would just have to see what the minimum gallon order is... as I've basically decided to have some sort of fuel storage at my house.

Oh Matt, I've been meaning to ask you, who would you have tune a high compression ls/vtec, itbs, gt30r, GSC T1s, 8 injectors and a complex 2 stage meth injection system, running an aem ems?

I've heard some say scotty and just as many say no scotty lol. I still remember when your car was at the old mainstream, god that was so long ago. I need to go see dave about building a manifold for my car soon