CavemanXXL

Hey fellas, i've been researching the turbos here and on other sites. I couldn't come to a decision in terms of what turbo to choose to replace the one i've at the moment.

Here is the setup:

-B16A2 Block
-B18 Crank
-Manley Rods
-84mm 9.0:1cr CP custom Stroker Pistons
1972cc(or 1974 ?) in total displacement
-ACL Race Bearings
-Cometic Gaskets
-Golden Eagle 84mm Head Gasket
-ITR Oil & Water Pumps
-New OEM Oil Cooler(if it helps ? it is the one behind the block, sandwiched between the oil filter and the block)

-ARP Headstuds
-B16A2 head with mild p&p
-Ferrea OEM Sized Valves
-Supertech Valve Guides(Bronze i believe ?)
-Skunk2 Tuner Stage 1 cams
-Skunk2 relevant valve springs and retainers
-Valve Locks(Supertech or Ferrea can't remember atm.)
-Edelbrock Victor X
-Skunk2 Pro Throttle Body

-BRMS AC&PS Ramhorn T3 Manifold
-3" DP(free all the way back + QTP and a 2" muffler on the other side)
I know cutout is most usefull when it is in front of the car, as near as possible to the engine, even out the hood,...etc but it is a Daily Driven car so we wanted minimum hastle.
-T3/T4 Journal Bearing Watercooled Turbo made by a local shop here(By here i mean Turkey, so don't mix it with the products like Silver Surfer,...etc., it is worse).
-HKS Bov
-Tial 38mm Wastegate

-P28 with S300
-M&W Pro 10 Ignition
-Crane Ignition Coil
-MSD Spark Cables
-NGK BKR8IEX Sparks

-B&M Fuel Regulator(5 years now, back from the NA days, haven't failed yet.)
-Precision 780cc Injectors(yeah i know i made a mistake there but is fine so far with the OEM resistor box, and plan to change it to ID1000s later on)
-Aeromotive 340LPH Intank Fuel Pump

-Koyo rad,...etc. etc. If you want/need to know anything else please feel free to ask since it is hard to remember every part in the car at once.

Running of wastegate atm. with 16psi spring. In my logs i see the boost moves between 14.7-15.0 cont.



Here is my problem:

MY TURBO IS FREAKING LAGGY!

Vtec on at 4950rpm and spool is around 5200-5300rpm. Which is fine if i was just to drag since i rev. to 8720rpm but it isn't fine.

Other part of my problem is the budget. If i had the budget obvious option for this setup would be a Twin Scroll manifold with Twin Scroll GTX3582R or GTX3076R. Ball bearing turbos with billet blades,...etc.

But i'm limited atm. and all i want to change is my TURBO so i can maintain my top end power(since it is a bad turbo i don't think that would be a challenge with a better turbo) and spool earlier. Like so much earlier. Like 4000~ish rpms.

I don't START TO see boost until 3750-4000rpms in 3rd gear.

What i want is to get boost to come around 2000~ish rpms and spool at 4000~ish rpms. That would be a nice daily driven street car and have like 400+whp@15-16psi(at my current pressure of boost) at top.

Is it doable or am i dreaming to want power both on low and top ends ?

Please don't offer me EXPENSIVE options like a GT3076R ballbearing or something like that.

I was looking into Precision 5858, Silver Surfer(But don't want it since i don't live in the States), Borg Warner 7670 maybe ? Or even a completely different option.

Btw, do i REALLY need BALLBEARING and BILLET BLADES for my goals ?

My budget you ask ? As low as possible, in the REASONABLE limits. 600-800$ range maybe ?

Here's a photo of the car as of now.(DON'T WORRY! THAT SH.TTY FILTER THINGY IS REMOVED!) (Oh and sorry for the dirt, i'm to give it a good clean this weekend.)


Thanks in advance for everything...

PS: Don't forget that i'm from Turkey and forgive me if my English is bad and/or i'm in lack of knowledge at something.

Peace out...

Dark_Teg

To say you have a T3/T4 really isn't enough to help you. Can you at least tell us what AR your turbo is .48,.63,.83 etc...

CavemanXXL

That was my point. Forget my turbo. Suggest a turbo to this setup.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well. it kinda isn't that easy. We need to know what you're coming from to know what you need to go to next. Otherwise, any suggestions may just be a repeat of what you already have.

We also need to know what your power goals are. It maybe the fact that you have a certain power level requirement and that you may be in the middle of compromise in order to get what you're looking for.

For example. That Intake manifold with its larger plenum and short runners means that there's more volume of pressurized air that has to fill that plenum before it enters into the combustion chamber. Different manifolds give different characteristics... Even for turbocharged engines.

Even a Divided housing (a twin scroll is entirely different) from a T4 would not only not work for the need, but it would make things exponentially worse, because of its design relative to the exhaust wheels that are offered for that. Even the .78A/R T3 housings for the GT(X)30_R from ATP wouldn't really help.

Some questions..

1- When you say you don't "see boost" until 3700rpms, does that mean you don't reach target boost pressure until that point? or where it simply reaches positive boost pressure?

2- What is your target boost pressure right now where you're giving these numbers? (12psi , 15psi, 20psi?)

3 - back to point #2.. When you say "spool" at 5200-5300.. Again, is that at full target boost pressure? this is a bit confusing.

4 - ANY idea of what turbo you currently have? the T3/T4 housings doesn't help.. Was it an off-shelf? Custom? It just seems from that information, (with a LOT OF GUESSING) you may have a water cooled T3/T04E 60 trim turbocharger. But that's really a guess.

But no, you don't need "billet" compressor wheels to respond faster, but it still may cost more than you think. We need to know this other info first.

To Be Continued..........

CavemanXXL

1-) None. Exactly, where it simply reaches positive boost pressure. After vtec, each gear i see boost, but if i remeber correctly, i start to see positive boost(i.e. 0 and up) in second gear like 4150-4200rpm and in third gear 3700~ish rpms.

2-) 16psi is my target. It translates to 16psi peak and 14.8-15psi cont. boost pressure.

3-) Hmm... Yes, i agree it is confusing.

Let's say i'm in third gear, and went all in(:D) on like 3000rpms. What happens is, i start to see positive pressure at like 3700~ish rpm, more on 4000rpm RANGE, @4950 i engage VTEC, which is like 7-8psi of boost i believe, then like 5200-5300 i start to see 13.5-14psi, right after than in miliseconds i get my TARGET boost which is my WASTEGATE SPRING, which is 16psi PEAK 14.8-15psi CONT.(it flactuates between 14.8 and 15.0 till the redline.) But i might be remembering wrong. Maybe i get full boost @ 5200-5300. I'll take a log on S300 and post it here.

4-) CUSTOM made. Garret .63 housing if i'm not mistaken but it hard to check if you look at the photo on the first post that my EXHAUST side of the turbo on AC side where DP goes out and it is hard to see anything.

I couldn't understand the "...but it still may cost more than you think." part. What did you mean by that ? Are billet compressor wheels not worth it ?

Here are some pictures of the turbo i've just remembered that i had.

PS: Forget about the cast mani, it was a no go when we were building the motor which was a year ago. I've BRMS Ramhorn since my first start on this engine.

kyden

he's asking for exact physical dimensions of the wheels. .63 housing isn't going to tell anyone anything. take the housings off and measure.

CavemanXXL

Which i can't do at the moment kyden. Wish i could.

Btw, for the power goals.

We don't have a good dyno here, closest one it 350miles out. But let's just say for the sake of the argument, i've 400whp for the moment. What i want is, as early spool as possible without hurting the top end, maybe a little.

BUT, the thing is, i think my turbo is so bad that even with a smaller but better turbo(Garret, Precision, Holset, Borg Warner,...etc.), i can achieve better spool and better if not the same top end power. So, that's why i'm in a decision to change my turbo.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Then get a t3/t4 Garret .50 trim, it has great spool characteristics. .50 trim max flow rate of 46 1b/min. Efficient up to 420whp but with Garret that really means 450 to 475whp.
Compressor Specs .60 AR T04E, Turbine Specs Stage 3 wheel (standard size) 4 bolt standard turbine discharge. Journal Bearing so it should be less expensive than ball bearing.
I think this will get you where you want to be, however with a small turbo like this you will get the quick response like you want but top end will suffer a bit. Overall I think this would be as close as you can get and staying pretty affordable.

CavemanXXL

What about a Journal Bearing Precision 5858 against Garret t3/t4 .50 trim ?

How much power would Garret produce in my setup @ 16psi of boost ?

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

I have never used Precision Turbos but have had plenty of Garret turbos. Horsepower wise the smallest turbo I ran was the Garrtt was a .57 trim, which is the next step up from the .50, I made 480whp on 17PSI.. I would say you should be able to nail the 400whp at 16 psi with the .50 trim and have very quick spool response.

Like I said though it will start to fall flat on the top end though.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yeah, that's a 4" inlet, a compressor wheel I can't see, with a tangental outlet with an unknown sized turbine wheel which I also can't see, with unknown dimensions, diameters, or profiles. Only the person who built it can say anything about this.

either way. Sounds like you need something about the 50-53lbs/min range instead. The compressor housing isn't helping, and that intake manifold exacerbates the situation as with the BlueRidge "Ramhorn"... You basically bought Drag racing parts for Turkish circuit racing, in which even a smaller turbocharger may not necessarily get you what you need.

If your budget is about $600-$800, in a T3, with a 4 bolt or 5 bolt downpipe, Then you're a little limited to about 420whp-460whp or so for most selections.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

those are about 370-400whp depending upon the dynomometer used and its measurements. The 5858 is a much larger turbocharger than the 50 trim or the GT3251B. If you want to worry about boost pressure, then worry about boost pressure. if you want responsive behaviour AND your budget, AND worry about the power level with a boost pressure level, you're going to drive yourself mad, because it doesn't really exist.

Focus on the responsiveness characteristic and your behaviour. if its 16 vs. 15, vs, 18psi, it'll do what it needs to do.

I agree. 50 trim, or GT3251B would work. Both max out at about 420whp. The "Hunter" Garrett turbo does about 460whp or so, but is out of the $800 range you were looking for.

CavemanXXL

Wow, i'm too confused at this moment...

Like Shodan said, best of both worlds doesn't exists i believe, what i REALLY want is a little responsiveness versus my sh.tty turbo without damaging too much top end.

@AZ CIVIC; Garret .57trim with "480whp on 17PSI" sound nice, but what was the spool characteristics and what was your engine setup. ?

I know my first post is a torture to read but in short, i've a 2liter, 9cr B Series engine with skunk2 tuner 1 cams, ferrea valves, supertech guides. Edelbrock Victor X and Skunk2 TB. Using 93 pump gas + Methanol/Water injection.

If you can tell me your engine setup you used with Garret 57. Trim that you got your 480whp@17psi, then maybe i can get into SOME KIND of comparison to determine to get .50 or .57trim.

I know i said bottom responsiveness BUT not at the cost of too much top end power since i like my top end as well. In the end where i get my power.

I mostly do highway Rolling races and some light traffic highway fun(coming across a F430 and beating it with a 98 civic is priceless. :p).

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

This isn't too confusing.

1- Stay Garrett - NO confusion there

2- Garrett Journal bearing can come close to what you want in a 57 "trim" or 50 "trim" or GT3251B. All in a cast wheel.

3- If you want the turbo to try and be both super Responsive AND have top end power, get your PSI target out of the equation

4- In order to do #3 better than the 50 "trim" or 57 "Trim" or GT3251B (which is journal bearing), you'll need to spend more money and get a GT3071R which can do both. this means your $600-$800 budget won't work, as they cost more. That's not confusing either. Otherwise, something's gotta be sacrificed.


Not confusing. Either do... Or don't.

CavemanXXL

Oh, i meant confusing by means of the turbo knowledge. I've been driving a turbo B series car for the last year or so but merely scratching the surface on the turbo knowledge. What does "trim", ".AR" mean, how does inducer and exducer wheel sizes and the ratios between them effect the car,...etc. ? Still don't know these.

All i've learnt so far is the exhaust side housing effect the spool and the top end efficiency and every turbo has a efficient(sweet spot if you will) boost pressure.

So, that's why i opened this thread, asked for a good turbo advice according to my setup and expectations. Now, i'm learning good, correct knowledge atm. and THANK YOU very much for that to all you fellas who help.

A friend of mine has a spare Ballbearing GT3071R, maybe i can get that but i guess it'll depend on the exhaust housing being .63 or .82. And the good thing about that is i can get it via credit card in 12 installments. That way i can stretch my budget.

For your #3, i've said that i don't wanna loose THAT MUCH power at top end for SUPER RESPONSIVENESS. Anything spooling better than what i have at the moment without losing too much top end power would make me happy i believe at this point.

So, in summary, with the GT3071R, am i looking at a very bad top end in sacrifice of responsiveness ? And if not, how much do you reckon i'll need to achieve 400whp mark with my setup ? And for last, for exhaust housing should i use .63 or .82 with the GT3071R ?

And for last, THANK YOU for bearing with my ignorance on the subject.



EDIT: And for the record, what is the difference between GT3076R and GT3071R by means of characteristics on the car. Less responsiveness, later spool and more top end power ?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Responses in Blue

CavemanXXL

1-) Thank you for the first link i'm reading it right now.

2-) Yeah, i'm under 3 litres but i'm 1972cc(2Litre) B16A2 with a built head(cams, guides, valves, springs, retainers,...etc) with a mild port polish on it.

I know my options are limited at best, but for the sake of seeking knowledge, isn't a 3076r with a .82ar exhaust housing a better choice then GT3071R ?

3-) Oh yeah, sorry for the "reckon" thing since i'm from Turkey i'm sure you can forgive me on that one. But should i buy the GT3071R with .62AR exhaust housing or .82AR exhaust housing, and what are the differences ?

Oh, and for the B16 thing, look at #2.

4-) On Garrett site i can see the differences and NUMBERS but i don't know how those numbers and physical differences relate to the car's responses. GT3076R vs GT3071R, are the differences less responsiveness, later spool and more top end power ?

I know you are trying to make ME learn about stuff by reading technical documents and coming to a conclusion on my own. But, what if i make a mistake by interpreting something wrong and make a wrong decision based upon that wrong interpretion ?

THAT's why i'm asking here. To people who have wisdom and experience in the matter for more DEFINITIVE answers, so i don't make a mistake.

HatchVX

In for a solution, this is kinda like my build

ArniFPR

some are not going to like what i'm going to say but at this budget try to find a holset hx35 or something in that range or even some 57-58mm pte or garrett

The sweed

I bet the tune is off? Maybe post your ignition tables? Also do you evan have a boost valve for the s300 or are you just using the wastegatespring only?

I bet you can reach your goals just by adding a electronic boost controler and a good tune on a dyno. The 350 miles I bet is well worth it.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't go with a pte turbo. Being in Turkey when the unit fails (not if) you'll have a hard time getting it repaired and it will take some time and money. Due to customs fees and waiting to clear customs both there and in US, both ways. Not to mention shipping costs

Stay with Garrett or look into a holset HE351CW. It's an hx35 turbine side with thr 7 bladed hx40 compressor wheel. It will support your goals without issue and is a very robust turbo as far as the bearing system goes

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

CavemanXXL

@The sweed; I've the legendary MAC selonoid installed but not activated yet. When we first made the conversion, we thought the wastegate spring was 0.7bar(10psi that is i believe ?) but it turned out to be 16psi and it is a PAIN in the .ss to remove wastegate since it is bolted on a AC&PS Ramhorn mani and like 0.01mm close to AC compressor. But, when i change the turbo, i'll change the spring and go with boost control as well(specially the quick spool option).

@wantboost; staying Garrett because of the reasons you explained was my target but with this budget i though i couldn't. Then Shodan said that 3071R will be good enough for 400whp@16-20psi range and as of luck my friend has a unit that was only used for 1000miles(he tried on R18 forged engine but the turbo couldn't spool before 5200rpm. and as of now there is no aftermarket cams, or springs, or anything else, he was only able to go as high as 7200rpm without cams running out. so he returned to gt2871 and his gt3071 was uninstalled. and i can get it via credit card installments that's how i can go beyond my budget.)

As for the Holset, i'll look into the model you said for pricing.

@TheShodan, my great bearer of ignorant fools like me. :D Let's not break the tradition and go number by number, shall we ?

1-) Thank you for the usefull info, first thing monday i'll go and check the specs on my friend's GT3071R. 60mm turbine wheel and .63A/R is what we hope for i guess.

2-) Ok, so by wanting responsiveness i didn't mean to as low as like 3500rpm spool. Like i said, i see spool@ 5100-5200rpm AFTER Vtec engages at 4950rpm. Which is bad right ? Maybe i wasn't clear on what my goals were by means of responsiveness. Let's just say, FULL BOOST(i.e. 16psi) @ 4500-4600rpm is what i expect. Since @4500-4600rpm boost won't come in one second, it'll give me some power on the lower end which is all i want RATHER THAN NOT SEEING POSITIVE PRESSURE BEFORE 3700-3800rpm. And, ofc i want 400+whp power.

3-) What does "49lbs/min-52lbs/min" mean ? The amount of air that a turbo can pass through in a minute or something else ? And for the record, we use METRIC system so i'm having a really hard time on values like "lbs/min, fahreneit, psi,...etc.". Well, not PSI, i got used to that part.

4-) Forget target boost pressure. I know the stress being done to an engine @16psi is not same on 2 differently sized turbos(GT3071R vs GT3582R for instance). But, i feel like lower the boost, more reliable the engine will be. Like, 16psi vs. 24psi, engine will last few thousand miles longer. It may be a ignorant superstition, i don't know.

As for the other topics, forget all the useless info, all i wanted to know is with which turbo, with my engine&specs, i can get FULL BOOST(spool) at or before 4500rpms and at the same time provide me 400whp(or more) at or around 16-20psi. With having 8600rpm(and/or 8720rpm) redline. And you guys came through, "GT3071R with 60mm turbine wheel. ALL need to be in a .63A/R", "GT3251B, T3/T04E 50 "trim" with stage III wheel" or "holset HE351CW. It's an hx35 turbine side with thr 7 bladed hx40 compressor wheel."

Now i've 3 options to select from, according to my budget.

5-) Most importantly, "There's a link on the site called Turbo 101 and Turbo 102. Those explain the housing a/r sizes and their meanings in more detail. You're going to have to learn a bit more than you'd like as we can't make the decision for you. Guiding you in the right direction of sizes doesn't mean doing the work for you.."

What i couldn't manage to explain is, after all the reading and research after last night, learning all about TRIM, A/R, Turbine and Compressor Wheels, Manifold Types, AFR differences on each application and fuel used,...etc. Those knowledge couldn't give me the choice i was needing. Why ? Ok, let's see this way. You said, for my perticular application, .63A/R would be enough for my power goal right ? How can i know that, if i haven't TRIED it ? All i knew was, .63A/R versus .82A/R means, bigger the A/R on Turbine housing, better the top end power but worse the spool time and responsiveness. But, on which engine with which turbo ? If you guys didn't help me at this thread, i could go with a i don't know GT3582R ? Or a .57trim T3/T4 with .82A/R since the turbo would be smaller versus GT3582R and the .62A/R wouldn't just cut it. But was it like that ? NO!

Why ? Because you informed that, in my setup, with my displacement,...etc. a ".50trim" journal bearing turbo would suffice my needs. Because you have EXPERIENCE with turbos and B Series Vtec engines. And you can't find this information on Garrett or Precision or Borg Warner sites.(i believe ?)

Afterall, isn't the purpose of this wonderful community to SHARE EXPERIENCES with others, so they shouldn't have to go trying after trying after trying, wasting time,money and sweat ?

And thank you again for seriously bearing with me and my endless questions. If the GT3071R is "60mm turbine wheel(it was the exhaust side i believe) in a .63A/R housing with Ball Bearing shaft(? don't know what to call the middle section yet )". If not, i'll be back for GT3251B and Holset options.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Well I would trust a good used Garrett product any day of the week. There's no issue with buying used and most of the time the turbo is as described and has plenty of life left. It's the dishonest sellers thst knowingly sell **** parts that makes everyone nervous

If you can find a good used 3071r jump on it. A lot of people that upgrade from units like that tend to keep them due the fact they are still 100% useable and hard to find. I know this firsthand as I'm looking for a used 3076r but everyone either wants enough for a used unit to go ahead and buy a new one or they keep them (I'm experiencing the latter, everyone wants to keep them)

CavemanXXL

Hey fellas,

Back from my friend. Saw the turbo but couldn't make anything out of it. There was no writings,...etc. So, i took a bunch of pictures, so, maybe you can identify it for me ?