Fuzion

which turbo will produce more power @ low and high psi. The car will be on a ls/vtec 81-83mm bore,9.0:1 c/r. Daily driver and track on the weekends. looking for around 400-450whp between 12-15psi and 500+@track on say 20+psi. which turbo would better suit my needs.

GOLDBERG

good Q..i wanna know the same thing..but right now leaning towards the full race turbo for max hp

Kwuaymaikrup

I am no expert but I think that the SC61 would be a lot more efficient on lower boost levels than the t67. But high in boost is where the t67 would shine. By looking at your goals I would go with the SC61.

-Ryan

BodyKits NW

The T67 will. It's almost like comparing a car to a semi lol.

GOLDBERG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BodyKits NW &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The T67 will. It's almost like comparing a car to a semi lol. </TD></TR></TABLE>

will make more power at low and high boost levels??or just high?

Arturbo

Here is my opinion. I have always said that the biggest you want to go on a T3 turbine is the SC61. I still feel this way. If you want 530whp you can get that with a SC61 at around 23psi. This was done with a stage 5 turbine wheel and a T04E 60AR compressor housing.

Now, if you run a T3/T67 with a stage 5 wheel then I feel its a mismatch of wheels. You need at least a T04 p-trim to drive the T67 compressor wheel and a p-trim CAN fit in a T3. But you are limiting yourself to a T3 turbine. In other words if you are going to run this and get the full potential of a T67 then run it with a T4 turbine housing. So many people are trying to push the limits of a T3 when all the power is right there in front of them with a T4 turbine.

So to answer your question, I feel if you are sticking with a T3 get the SC61. If you are running a T4 then its T67 all the way!

art

Dublocivic

For the t67 on the t4 what do you think the minimal displacement and rpm could be?

Full-Race Geoff

and naturally, i disagree, art.

I feel the t67 will make more power at lower boost levels, its a bigger compressor wheel which will push more air. we had an Si recently do 536 at 21 psi on a conservative tune, running out of injector.

Also i have the t4 t67 on my civic right now with a prototype GT-P trim turbine wheel, and i can wholeheartedly say that i prefer the t3t4 over this turbo, in every respect. Also it is *not* a mismatch, a stage 3 is a mismatch, while a stage 5 is not. Oh and if you were wondering... stage 3 makes power on the t67 too, i just dont like mismatches. In fact the power kept going UP at 570whp at 9500 and would have kept going up.... food for thought

Ek00fbp

Those are some really impressive numbers geoff keep up the good work

GOLDBERG

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm so the t3/t67 is better then the t4/t67 geoff??does it spool a bunch faster or something??what would be the average spool time(start ing and peaking round 10-12psi) for a 2.0L gsr, jg intake manifold, 68mm str tb, jg pro series pnp head, with your manifold, and yer t3/t67?

Arturbo

I was waiting for you to chime in Geoff. Good to see you back and congrats on your graduation.

I will agree with you, the 67 will make more power but power isnt everything. How much area under the curve do you have? Are you talking about henry's car making that power on 21psi?

You know I have always respect you decisions, but I still feel the 67mm compresso is too big for the T3 unless you have t04 turbine wheel (P trim or .69 trim).

art

SiRkid

you graduated!?!

way to go!

*back to topic*

Full-Race Geoff

to me, power is everything, and power under the curve is even more everything. However, power under which curve is really the question? To me, power under the curve of where you land your shifts is the answer to the question, and the 67mm wheel will have more power under the high rpm portion of the curve.

this is just to *me* and for a change i like friendly disagreements. i wish everyone i argued with online was fun to argue with like art. You should really feel that t3t4 on a healthy motor, not one with burnt up pistons the car that autologic had that turbo on was simply not even close to a fiar comparison

the car at 21 psi was not :edit: FULL-RACE HENRY's edit: church tuned it to 536 but it started to run out of injector and it also maxxed their dyno out.


Modified by Full-Race Geoff at 7:06 PM 1/14/2004

Arturbo

LOL, its called respect geoff and you know we go way back. BTW, we really need you right now for our chasis.

GOLDBERG

soo..geoff..when/where does this turbo start making power?i just listed my setup

Phoenix GSR

Geoff - can you tell us more about your experiance between the T3/T67 and the T4/T67... particularly why you like the t3 so much more, I would expect the t4 would have been better..

thanks

Full-Race Geoff

when the t4 finaaaaaaaaaallllllllly hits that thing hits SOOOOOOO hard. however, heres a little story. I am away from az right now, and jon has torn his s13 down. So becuase im away he is driving my civic around. Some dude with a loudass modular mustang was trying to get him to race yesterday and even tho jon knew i would be pissed he raced him anyway. so jon has never driven my car with a t4 on it. he drove it with the BB 60-1 but not this turbo. He stepped on it in 3rd expecting the car to bone out like it did with the 60-1, but the car just sat there. didnt really get going, then around 5500 you can hear the turbo spool then the car is just out. No other way to describe it. Initially, the mustang got like 3 car lengths on jon, but once the turbo spooled jon had like a train length on the mustang. Thats just how t4s are. With a t3t4 he would have throttled it and wouldnt have had to wait. its that big of a difference. I miss pressing the gas and going, especiallky when the t3t4 will still make 600 whp, why would you need more?

Full-Race Geoff

you asked for it! lol.

starting off is our t4t67 on boostfeds b16 with itr cams. 84mm bore Not a bad comparo to the next two cars, realtively similar displacement. i think 9:1




Next is henry's car with a t3t67 on our AC kit, 13 psi, 91 octane. sleeved to only 81mm. lsvtec, 9:1. it needs some more ignition advance in the midrange, ill tune it some more once we get a bit more time.




next is a sc61 on evohybrids hatch, again 81.5 mm lsvtec



next is a 60-1 that mase just tuned, but this one is cheating at 84mm



Now the not-so-relevant but really cool dynos

100% stock bottom gsr.



And for anyone that thinks the stage 5 wheel is a mismatch, then you would think a stage 3 would be a TERRRRRRRRRRRRRIBLE mismatch right?? WRONG! stage 3/t67 (it is a minor mismatch. stage 5 is not a mismatch)




edit: noted thanks, i hate those damn dyno plots haha

edit2: where did all my other edits go??? hrmph. this computer sucks ill fix the post later


Modified by Full-Race Geoff at 3:01 PM 1/14/2004



Modified by Full-Race Geoff at 3:05 PM 1/14/2004

Kataku2K3

Our most commonly sold turbo (with built motors similar to yours, ranging from sleeved up B16's, B17's, and B18's) is the SC-63... It doesn't have a great deal of lag but still hits nicely... Scott and I built one of our customers setups for his Teg this past summer, 9.0:1, 84.50mm bore, B18C, and with an SC-63 it made 520whp on 21lbs... At 17lbs. it made more than Brian's motor (which is the exact same) running a T4/60-1... Just another option if you want something to look into... Good Luck

Full-Race Geoff

thanks for the heads up. i think the t4 sc61 is too much turbine, especially after seeing brian ballard's car (Which ran very well, but the 61mm wheel is definately better suited to a t3). We have similar results with the t3t67, as it spools very nicely and has a ton of top end. i wil try to get the 536@21 psi plot but im not sure if my customer wants it posted.

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now the not-so-relevant but really cool dynos

100% stock bottom gsr


there isnt too much top end on here simply becuase there was almost no timing in the motor. If jeff gave it more timing you wouldnt see the plateau. 300whp at ~5100rpm

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Isn't that 300whp @ 6700rpm's? Xotic's sheets always get confused..

onetwothree

I like all your info Geoff, esp after I just bought the t4/t67. lol

Full-Race Geoff

the t4 up top is just so nuts. no other way to describe it, just nuts

Rhman19

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the t4 up top is just so nuts. no other way to describe it, just nuts</TD></TR></TABLE>

I will attest to that, I rode in Terry's car at just 14, once it spooled up it went.

boosted92

What about a garrett GT wheel'ed T3 housing (like on the GT3561) paired up to the T67 compressor housing and wheel? How would that spool and make power?