riceball777

I suppose its time to document my motor build.

gtx3576r redyno results from old 50 trim turbo +60whp ! - Honda-Tech

This is my current setup which I do drive at least 10,000 miles a year.

I picked up a spare engine to build and when I'm done I'll pull out my perfectly healthy 120,000 mile 442whp f20c for this motor. I'll be taking my time with this since i have a perfectly good running fast car as it is.

here are the specs on the motor. Short block i had built by golden eagle. valve job and head work was done by tom at portflow. Everything else I do my self.

Full engine mod list is

f20c block stock frm sleeves bored to 87.25mm
new tsx k24 crank
inline pro f24 rods
mahle frm compatible 10.5cr frm 87.25mm pistons
fresh valve job from tom at portflow
stock intake valves and .5mm over sized supertech inconel exhaust valves
stock ap2 springs and retainers
bronze valve guides
stock throttle body and intake manifold bored out by maxbore.com

SOS twin disc clutch
FID 2200cc incectors with pnp clips
walbro 450lph e85 pump rewired straight from the battery
AEM series 2
aem boost gauge
aem serial gauge
aem boost control solinoid
omni 4 bar map sensor
track forged t3 turbo manifold
Garrett ball gtx3576r turbo. E compressor cover. t3 .63ar gt vband turbing housing
custom 3 inch down pipe
custom 3 inch exhaust made with alumized piping. no cat. 3" hks carbon ti muffler and 2 vibrant straight through resonators
cheep ebay oil cooler mounted in frount of radiator with custon -10an lines
custom garret core intercooler. core is 24x12x3.5
custon 2.5 aluminum intercooler piping routed inline pro style
custon 4" intake pipe with K&N filter
tial q 50mm bov
tial 44mm MVR wastegae.
custon open dump tube
i will also get a flex fuel tune

pics pic of my current setup


tsx crank with inline pro f24 rods and mahle pistons


87.25 mahle pistons. These are the lowest compression they make. 8.9cr in a f20 and 9.6 in a f22. So i should be in the mid 10's for compression for a 2.4l


This is the stock tsx crank before the flywheel lip is machined off.


Here is my tsx crank with the lip machined off so the s2000 flywheel will fit


Here is the stock tsx key way before machining


Tsx keyway machined longer to fit the s2000 crank key


sleeves had to be notched to clear the rods use to the longer tsx 99mm stroke


pistons had to be notched to clear the oil squirters




spec sheet of clearances from golden eagle for the block


pistons stock out 1mm just like stock


head fresh from port flow


bored out stock intake manifold from maxbore




bored out stock throttle body



Had a -10 bung welded on the timing chain case


aloycraft baffle


arp head studs


fluid damper crank pulley


fresh candy red powder coated valve cover


All done and ready to be dropped in.


Just finished installing my flex fuel sensor and e85 gauge

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Nice, very well done.

justYncredible

iTrader: (1)

Oh damn this ish looks serious!

DC_Legacy

Marvelous!! In for the results on this, haven't seen many stroke this motor but the concept seems sound since this motor in genetically related to the K or vice versus...

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Why so low on the compression if you are going to run ethanol?
The spec sheet says the APR 625+ rod bolts but the pic of the rod bolt says ARP 2000, what happened there?
Seems tight on the p2w and top ring. Were those GE specs or yours?
If you want to sell the GTX3576 pls PM me.

Tony the Tiger

Why an older-tech FP turbo?

They work great on Evo's because it takes 35+ PSI on these cars to make 600+ WHP. The wheel was designed to be efficient there at those pressure ratios.

Not to bust any chops, but it is a complete mismatch for your setup. On your motor, it will clear that power under 25 PSI, which is probably off the efficiency island on the FP compressor. It will lag really badly between every shift.

riceball777

Even though I have a flex fuel sensor and I will be tuned on 91octane and e85. This is a street car and will be driven on 91 octane 90% of the time.
These are the standard inline pro f24c stroker rods. Not the more expensive ones custom aged 625 ones. These were golden eagles recommended specs.
I plan to keep my gtx3576r for a spare turbo. But I'll hit you up if I decide to sell it.

riceball777

Well right now I run a Garrett gtx3576r with a .63 t3 open housing on my stock f20c. I recelently sold and parted out my evo8 and I have my old fp hta gt3582r turbo. I thought that maybe I should run that turbo on my new stroker 2.4 motor insteed of my current gtx3576r. The hta gt3582r is only a tiny bit bigger. The compressor is 59mm inducer and 82mm exducer compared to a 58mm inducer and 76mm exducer of my gtx3576r.

The hta gt3582r is known to spool faster and make more power than a standard non billet gt3582r.

Do you think I should stay with my current gtx3576r with my new stroker motor?
I also have both the t3 .63 and .82 ar hotside. Which one should I run? I currently run the .63 and was planing to stay with the .63 with the new stroker motor.

Remember this is a daily street car that I rarely race and I actually do more autocrossing that anything else.

I would think the billet wheel hta gt3582r would spool a hell of a lot faster on my stroker 2.4 compared to the gtx3576r on my stock F20c.

I appreciate all your advice.

Tony the Tiger

If you are not overly concerned with the overall peak power (600+ WHP), then the GTX3576R will spool significantly faster than the HTA... It also has a much more friendlier comp/turbine flow ratio well suited for your 2.4L setup on a lower compression E85 setup.

The HTA GT35R spools great for its size, meaning that it does well when compared to a regular GT35R and flows more too... But in fact, it will be more suitable to compare the HTA to the billet GTX3582R.

When comparing to the GTX3576R, it is simply a smaller compressor wheel and if you are looking for that faster spool, the GTX3576R will spool faster.

The only difference is that the GTX3576R will start to run out of breath north of 600WHP. Anything below that, it is a faster spooling setup.

I would start with a smaller 0.63 A/R housing since you are looking for snappier low-end and midrange power. Until you start choking out, you can choose to upgrade later down the road if you think you can use a bigger turbo. Your 2.4L setup will make a big difference in spool, low-end and midrange. You may actually begin to hate the car if all it does is spin tire and lack of control of power. Go to the exteme of best spool first, and then refine later on if you can use more lag and more power up top

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Nah. I'd stay with the GTX3576R even in the stroker engine.. for the purpose you're describing I think you'd have a better torqueband than that GT3582RHTA.

Just because you have larger displacement doesn't automatically mean you should go with a larger turbo.. especially on a street car like you're planning.

Keep the GTX3576R.

I had a similar breakdown as Tony when I was selling mine a while back.

http://hondamarketplace.com/showthread.php?t=3197333
Post #22

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Turbo selection aside, his is a pretty badass build. I like the attention to detail for stroking it. I'm with Muckman, though - not really a fan of lowering the compression as much as you did. Even on 91, you could have handled more compression.

riceball777

The compression is 10.5:1. It's not really that low considering I'll be running. Straight 91 octane 90% of the time.

riceball777

Ok you guys convinced me. I'll keep my gtx3576r for this stroker engine. Your right as I'm really not concerned about max power. My current 442whp f20c is plenty fast enough for me as it is. I just would like better low end power with maybe another 50whp up top.

I was just tired of staring at my hta gt3582r on my shelf and I though it would be good for my new engine but I guess I'll keep runing the gtx3576r.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Extra 50whp up top is very easy with the GTX3576R. I have my RB25DET road race guys use the GTX3576R with a 264 HKS or GSC camshaft. works Beautifully.

riceball777

As far as goals I would love to make 500whp on straight 91 octane with killer low end power and fast spool.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Don't worry about that so much.. that's hard to do period on that fuel with "fast spool".. to many people try that.. Just get it done the best you can

Tony the Tiger

I can say that 500WHP it will be doable with 94 oct, but can't say it is doable (and safe) for 91 oct.

The closest setup I have tuned was an F22C with a thicker Cometic HG (10.5:1 'ish) with a GT35R... It runs strong at 500WHP with 94 oct, but I had to upsize to a 0.82 A/R turbine housing because the lower compression greatly altered the amount of exhaust energy at that power level.

Assuming both cars will be similar in turbo size, you will have trouble with that power level if you ran a smaller turbine housing. It's a trade-off, so you will have to decide between spool and safe and big pump gas power. It's no coincidence that I always size certain components larger than usual to keep the setup safe when dealing with 91 or 94 oct.

A lean and mean setup (e.g. high compression, smaller turbine, stroker, lots of torque) can only be harnessed if you have lots of headroom for octane. E85 will be the fuel of choice for your setup. There won't be a setup that can do well for both aspects.

riceball777

Well I make 442whp 280tq right now on straight 91 octane with a stock f20c. How much power do you think I'll make with my stroker f24c on straight 91 octane. Like I said I will be going tuned on e85 and 91octane. Making power on e85/race gas is easy but I'm not conserned about that. This is a street car and it will need to run On 91octane 90% on the time, so I'm more concerned about that.

I have two turbos and two turbine housing at my disposal. Garrett gtx3576r and fp hta gt3582r. I have both a .63 and .82ar t3 /gt band out let housing to choose from. I would think the bigger turn and housing will be easer for my goals but I suppose I'll stay with the gtx3576r .63 ar winch that's what you recommend.

ckrs_civic

iTrader: (4)

very nice dude.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Please remember too that you're looking at 442whp as a peak number. Since you're using this car for the street "90% of the time", then its fair to assess that you won't be even at 500whp "90% of the time" either, because you'll be in the larger part of the powerband; which is the best place to utilize the smaller turbine housing and compressor wheel of the GTX3576R over the larger GT35RHTA. If you make 500whp, it will more than likely be a peak number. And even though it can be more easily reached with obviously the larger turbocharger, you would give up more in usable powerband than the advantages of gaining your particular goal of a peak number with such low-knock resistant fuel.

So, yes, use the E85 for the weekend fun days (10% of the time), and just be at a nice comfortable 440-460whp on the 91 swill (as peak numbers) for the other 90%.. You'll be between 380-440whp anyway for any usable powerband with the additional displacement you have.

umair

nice build! what turbo manifold are you running?

HatchVX

In to see how this turns out. Are the stock springs and retainers good for that kind of power?

riceball777

I don't see a purpose to buy aftermarket springs and retainers. I have made over 500whp for years with my stock f20c. Countless amounts of people have made over 600whp for years on a stock f20c/f22c.

This motor will be at around 500whp 90% of the time. Plush the reline will be lower than stock at probable 8,000rpm at most.

So is there's a reason to up grade the stock f22c valve springs and retainers....?

Tony the Tiger

Your old 2.0L setup is a high revver, meaning that it can achieve 442 WHP at 280 WTQ. That is roughly 140 WTQ per L of displacement, and this would be considered a proven number on your given setup on 91 oct.

With the stroker, it is a different exchange of power. Your torque band will come earlier and peak sooner. On a 2.4L with 140 WTQ/L, you can safely churn out 336 WTQ. Since you have dropped 1.0pt of compression, it will be more friendly for pump gas; but if you choke the turbine with a small turbine hsg at the same time, then it is more prone to detonation. The hard part, is to find out whether you have actually raised or lowered the knock threshold as a result.

Your peak WHP number would really depend on where the engine makes the torque in the RPM band. If your torque peaks out too early, say 7200RPM, you will technically still run into the same knock limit on 91 oct at 450-460 WHP with peak torque of 336 WTQ. So my guess, if your 2.4L stroker peaks out too soon, you could in fact end up back to where you started in terms of pump gas power.

I would probably recommend a set of slightly larger cams, so that you can get an earlier torque band, but also allow it to carry up to 8000+ RPM. That way, you can be assured you will reach 500WHP safely on 91 oct with plenty of room to spare.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the p2w is a little tight IMO. most people on e85 with enough compression see a lot of scuffing at anything under 40 p2w (ask Muckman about his troubles)