Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

I've done plenty of searching about ebay (Vibarant, Bonka, Mishimoto) FMIC
What I keep reading is that "they are okay under low boost"....I need help to understand what that means and how it applies to my setup.


SETUP:
Stock B18c (skunk2 IM)
HKS cast manifold
P13 turbo
This turbo made 250whp 175tq stock b16 @ 10psi so I'm hoping it will make 280whp with 200tq on 12-14psi @ e85. I do not plan on making more than 300whp in the future.
I'm realistic and know I'm not going to make a ton of power so i don't want to waste money just for the sake of going with name brand FMIC.


Use:
I plan on road racing at local tracks & light drag racing.


Now need to pick a FMIC. I've narrowd it down these two that I can get new from my local shop:

a) Precision 600hp
31.5 x 8 x 3.5
2.75" inlet/outlet
$365

b) Misimoto 350hp
27.5 x 11.75 x 3
3" inlet/outlet
$204


If the price differene was $50-60 I'd go with the Precsion hands down but I'm really unsure if I should go with the mishoto and save the +$150 differnce on other things like future clutch, tuning, ect.




Questions:


1) What is concidered high boost for ebay type fmic?
Since 1bar on SC61 is totally different than 1 bar on 18G.
It makes no sense because fmic are rated by HP not PSI.

2) People say ebay type of fmic start to loose cooling efficiency at high boost, why is that?
- end tank design
- the amount of fins/per inch (ie: low density vs high density cores)

3) Since I'm plan on making less than 300whp, should I go with Mishimoto or because I will be tracking my car, should I go with Precision due to having a high density core vs Mishimoto?




Thanks guys I greatly appericate it.

UJLSMoFo

dont go cheap on a fmic this is one of the must important areas of make safe hp.

six7one

spoolin performance.com good quality and easy on the wallet

shiux

neither of you answered the guys questions...

I am interested in this too, (im putting together a low boost H22 for my prelude)

I have heard to stay away from them if you plan on making big power, but why?

jdm602

best bang for buck? ebay special. ive seen them do 300+ on a few ls's. should be easier to get there with a gsr.

fishieman

My $130 mishimoto on my turbo gsr- made 251whp/185 on 7psi. It's pretty thin... I would definitely get a thicker core IC.

Bwill9886

Charlie I'm in the same boat as you as far as what I've read on "ebay IC's"

My friend needs a new intercooler because the previous owner beat the ever living s**t out of the one thats on their now. Its been cheaply spray painted, bent, dented, etc... Its an ebay special of some sort, about 27x10x3.

Now the car makes pretty good power right now. Y8 pushing 260whp at 11 psi on a nice basic tune. I just can't help but wonder what its losing to this piece of crap though? So I started searching, and basically came to your two choices as well.

I agree with you that no doubt, the Precision has been proven and would do a fine job... but is it really gonna be worth the extra dough? My friend is money conscious (and I would be too from whats been dumped into the car already...) and doesn't wanna buy something thats just gonna be too much for the car. I know theres a Precision 350 as well, but thats still more than the mishimoto!

So help us out experts! What have you seen with these mishimotos? I've read mixed reviews, now lets see some more opinions.

gc8dc95

Precision would be the proven way to go.

You can checkout CXMotorsports, they have been known to do well for a pretty cheap price. I have had no issues with a large FMIC from them. I have run anywhere from 7-20psi through it on a 57trim t3/t04e and now I have a SC61 that is going on.

single cam fan

my buddy is making 700+hp on a ebay special!!! so i think thats ur best bang for ur buck

13173

I know a guy that just went 9's on a Ebay intercooler

I dont understand where these people say that ebay intercoolers are restrictive or there is no telling how much power they could be making with a $800+ intercooler......

I have seen some basic turbo setups with cheap cores/intercoolers make really good power and do fine.

_kiid

im at 300 with an ebay ic

LightningTeg

CXracing intercooler.

Mishimoto cores are garbage. Get a Precision 350hp if you looking at them.

2.0 and up

i would never cheap out on an intercooler.... i guess i like quality parts that last long

95DC2GS-R

I'm using a BMPC and it's great, the construction is solid, and does not look too restrictive. The only problem I have with it is that it's pretty heavy, and it's a little too big for me since I'd like to put the front impact bar back on.

CXracing is the same **** as Mishimoto. Mishimoto just slaps their name tag on it and jack up the price.

95B18BTurbo

Another option to look at is Treadstone performance. I have a TR8 intercooler since I am shooting for about 3-400whp, which a TR6 should do the trick for what you want. They are a bar and plate design and have a high density of fins per square inch. Bar and plate intercoolers are more efficient and the more fins per inch the better cooling and the less likelyhood of heat soaking during track outings. Ensure you look at what the pressure drop across the core is as well because some are higher than others. For around $220 for the TR6 or $230 for the TR8 they are definitely the better bang for your buck for quality closer to Precisions, yet a lot better than the ebay variants.

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com...R6+Intercooler

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com...R8+Intercooler

00si2

It has more to do with not being good at cooling that being restrictive. The whole point of an intercooler is to cool the air. The more power you are making in most cases generates more heat hence a larger intercooler. A good quality intercooler is made to better cool the air and thats what your paying for.

oneludesol

car in sig has a no-name ebay IC @ 20psi...

SOHC50shot

1) What is concierge high boost for ebay type fmic?
- Since 1bar on SC61 is totally different than 1 bar on 18G.
(if i'm understanding this properly, 1 bar is a unit of pressure. So 1 bar is 1 bar, there is no difference.
-You can run any amount of pressure through any size intercooler or heat exchanger given the material and structure is able to handle the stress. You may end up restricting output if you have a lot of pressure and a really small intercooler, but it will still work. Where sizing comes in is efficiency.
- so to answer your question, high boost for a cheaply made/cheaply engineered intercooler would probably be 18+ psi. - that's an aggressive guess, i would say 12+ to be conservative.

2) People say ebay type of fmic start to loose cooling efficiency at high boost, why is that?
-Yes due to these ebay intercoolers being made in some guys garage, or on the side at a shop, the proper amount of engineering was not done on the device. Factors such as fin design, number of fins, number of rows, overall core depth, and flow rate limits all contribute to the efficiency. I would guess that most of the ebay intercoolers just aren't sufficiently designed. (fin geometry, rows, depth..ect).
Also, low and high density typically describe the overall volume of space related to geometry. Meaning if you have many large fins, then you can cool a large amount of air hence higher density on the output side. If you have lots of small fins, then the opposite applys. The perfect match involves an extensive look at your set-up relative to intercooler design.

What information your probably interested in may be something like this:
- Depending on your specific turbo set-up, plumbing, and engine output the "best size" intercooler is hard to say. All of those factors contribute to flow rate, charge temperature, and overall efficiency. Dont fret though, since your running a B, with a good manifold, and decent turbo you can probably rule out using an ebay intercooler.

- Bigger is generally better, the more air you can cool the more power you will make. Since most of us dont have unlimited budgets you can rule out the high end, expensive, giant brand name IC's. Because its sort of overkill for the price.

- In your case i would say you'd be safe running any intercooler good for 250-500hp. Again the 500hp would be the best in terms of efficiency, BUT you could definitely get away with a 250-300hp IC. The power difference between the two may only be 10-15hp. I hope that helps.


3) Since I'm plan on making less than 300whp, should I go with Mishimoto or because I will be tracking my car, should I go with Precision due to having a high density core vs Mishimoto?

My 2cents and overall recommendation is this. You should be fine with the Mishimoto intercooler with respect to your projected goals. Off the top of my head, the geometry appears to be more than large enough to operate at the higher efficiency range (solid power gain w/o busting the bank), given your set-up. I think it would be the best bang for your buck.
Without going into an in depth thermodynamic analysis of the design you can probably assume the brand IC's are flat out made better either by the companies historical data, or their overall engineering. Dont go cheap (ebay) unless you plan on just banging together a 5-7psi custom crap kit.

Wow, thats a lot of info. I hope it provided a little insight. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments on any of that.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

Just to make it perfectly clear... I am not taking about FMIC that are from sheet metal end-tanks that most people can make on their own. (not that there is anything wrong with that style). I'm talking about FMIC like Bonka, Dark, Vibarant, Mishimoto, CXracing, Godspeed, with cast end-tanks and with cores that are nearly identical to each other)




http://www.mishimoto.com/front-mount...ler-turbo.html

Good numbers on your setup.
You have the smaller which is only 2.5" thick.
I'm actaully concidering the LARGER one which is 3" thich.



Why are they garbage?
.... please don't make blank statements like that it doesn't help with the thread & also your kind of statments just add to the confusion for others searching for answers.




1 bar is 14.5psi
Since turbos come in all different sizes, the amount of CFM each turbo generates is different per PSI/BAR. - So there is a difference.



My orginal question if manufactures rate their FMIC by HP, why are online guys saying Ebay(dark, bonka, mishimoto, vibarant) are only effecient for low PSI applications.

I doubt these are made by some 1 man shop. They are probably made in China in some factory.

About the engineering that goes in to them. I'm not all that worried about it. I mean if this was back in 2001 when you had to get a name brand FMIC, junkyard FMIC or have one made out of sheet metal and iffy welds... I would be worried. What your saying is correct only if your designing your own from the ground up, but if you have plenty of "proven" FMIC to replicate, it's not hard to make one that works well.

But now currently, its very easy to copy another companies product. Sure it may not have tons of R&D into it like the orginals but it has 99% of the same concept and properties of that "name brand" fmic to make a replica of it and still have it performe well. Example: high end aftermarket headers, v-stack, turbo manifolds, exhausts, intakes.


Great points, but I think your looking into the subject more than it needs to be.
Ebay (Bonka, Dark, Vibarant, Mishimoto, CXracing, Godspeed) are proven.

A lot of my other buddies who have Mitsbushi, Subaru, say there's not much difference as long as the core equal to garrett core & provided the end tanks are well constructed. Even the the STI guys I know upgrade a larger ebay fmic over their stock ones (+20psi)


That is a valid statement about with more power comes with more heat (to a point).

However... think about this quoted from Precision's website
Remember, however, that an air-to-air intercooler will only cool the air charge down to ambient air temperature. So, if the outside temperature is 110° F just off the asphalt roadway, this may be as cool as your air charge will get - and that's why race applications use liquid-to-air intercoolers!



The real question is:

1) With only making 250-300whp.... will the mishimoto 27.5 x 11.75 x 3 cool down my charged air down to ambient air temp just as welll as the Precision 31.5 x 8 x 3.5 ?


2) Say for example it's 80F out.
Even if the Mishimoto was to have 100% effeciency (able to bring charge air temp down to approx 80F)... it doesn't mean that the Prescion (which has more fins per inch) is going to get the air temps any lower than 80F... right?



Input please.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

see pictures for referrance
in this order

Vibrant
Precision
Mishimoto
godspeed
cxracing

Garage 808 Hatch

I had the CX racing unit, looks like the bottom one in the post above me. 3.5" thick core. Held over 25psi no issues, seemed to cool fine, over 350whp 8:1 sohc non vtec on 92 octane

NonovUrbizniz

The problem for the cheaper I/C's at high pressure for their rated HP is that the charge air for a smaller turbo making 300hp is MUCH MUCH hotter than a larger turbo putting out 300hp.

Basically the cheaper I/C's are fine as long as you're not pushing the limits of your turbo.

As far as "the real questions"

1. No one can answer that until the two I/C have been tested in comparison to each other. If the cheapone is oversized enough it might be fine... if it's not then it might not be fine.

2. If the cheapy is cooling down the intake air to ambient temps then no obviously another more expense I/C is not going to cool it anymore... the question is is the cheapy REALLY going to get the temps down to ambient?

Again not answerable until you or someone else who already has... tests it.

Go with the cheap one and upgrade down the road if you really have to.. chances are you won't have to.

SOHC50shot

1. Generally Yes. Will you notice a difference between the two running under 300 hp, only on paper (~1 hp).
**But one thing to also consider is how much frontal area you can have directly exposed to the open air. (ex: If any of that IC frontal area is tucked behind a bumper or damn your efficiency WILL definitely be affected) I would for sure say you would need to factor dimensions into your choice.

2. Correct

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

LOL funny that you mentioned it because I will be pushing the limit of my tiny P13 bb turbo on my stock GSR block. I have to work with what I have... too late to switch turbos...lol

Because more PSI with small turbo has tendancy to cause backpressure therefore detnation, I've decided to go E85. No big deal since this is just my summer hobby car.




I can understand the need for high qaulity parts when needed.

LightningTeg

My post:

Mishimoto Core:


MY CX racing Core (Same thickness as Mishimoto):



Mishimotos old tube and fins were even worse. Your paying an extra $100 for the name on a core that isnt as good.