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Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

 
Old 10-10-2018, 09:37 AM
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Default Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

I have one of the earliest full-race ramhorn manifolds on my 84mm b16 vtec with a gt35r. It has NO tear drop design and is just a 90 deg 46mm port out the collector. I changed the flange and have a tial 46mm WG on it and when running the engine without a wastegate spring I start building boost around 6-7000 rpm and it peaks at 20psi at around 9500. that is at full load in 4th gear..

I want to hold the boost down in lower gears.. It is not 20 psi there but I still wants to be able to lower boost more then that in the higher gears aswell. The tial 46 I got needs a 90 deg bend between the wastegate and collector because of itīs size and I donīt know how much that effects things.. Somewhere down the line I will probebly get my 4wd parts on the car and a bigger motor with a twinscroll turbo that needs 2 wastegates.. 2pc 46īs wont happen so I need another wastegate some time anyway.. So maybe a Tial 44 M-VR or turbosmart 50mm would be a good ide and a teardrop exit.. a 60mm feels to big and I am afraid it will be difficult to regulate boost.. People with 1000whp setups and topmounts.. Is it enough for them with two 44mm wg to hold boost down of the line with big as 72-76mm turbos?
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:09 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

It's difficult to determine exactly what you are trying to ask; or which scenario you are looking for an "answer" to.
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

why would you run a wastegate without a spring?
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

I think he means no pressure reference line on the waste-gateso it will never open
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Originally Posted by Autoworks View Post
It's difficult to determine exactly what you are trying to ask; or which scenario you are looking for an "answer" to.
Yes our swed friend kinda confused me too Somehow the first time i post something i post exactly like that . I have 10 things in my mind and actualy post 5 things skiping parts. I allways come back 1 min later to edit the post when i read it haha.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

yeah.. sorry ha ha.. I will try to make it more clear.

I ran the car without wastgate spring to see how low boost I can run. And how bad my setup creeps. I was thinking maybe it would creep and spool the turbo to 5 or so psi but it makes 20 psi at 9500rpm although it starts spooling very late.. Around 6500-7000 or so..It means that my wastegate design doesnīt work that good. No matter what wastegate spring I use I will never get under 20psi at red line. The exhaust gases goes through the turbo instaed of the wastegate even it is fully open. The old full race ramhorn manifolds are kind of known for boost creep.. The new ones has a tear drop design to make it easier for the exhaust gases to go through the wastegate. The result are less boost creep. But to my questions..

Anyone have any experiance if my 90 deg bend between the collector and wastegate will have big impact on boost creep.?

How low boost can you run on a ram horn with a tear drop wastegate outlet with a 44mm wastegate and a 61lbs+ turbo. Is there any appinions if a 50mm would be benificial? Or even a 60mm? Or will it only make it harder to regulate for a set boost target?

If using two wastegates on a 72-76mm twinscroll top mount style application are two 44mm wastegates enough to get the boost down to a suitable level for first gear? Will two 50mm be benificial or overkill?

I am trying to decide what to do about my boost creep issue with my gt35r and ram horn setup and still have the suitable wastegate for a bigger twinscroll motor later ..



This is a very old picture but it is basicly the same.. A little bigger pipeing now and v-bands etc..


This is the new design on the wastegate outlet.. "tear drop" design.

Last edited by The sweed; 10-10-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Wow is that an F46? I had one in the past.
Look you can take another elbow from one side from the collector and merge it with your elbow
like a 2-1 -> wastegate. This way youll have more area. Remember pressure has to do with area too.
Other than that on the long run it has to do with wastegate priority and how much you have from it.
If you remember hytech wastegate position similar to F1 teams. The trick is to use a wastegate priority setup with a small wastegate. This way you have it all. Small distortion of the flow and good controll.
With a twin scroll setup since the % area of the wastegate is bigger because each wastegate controlls less volume of air even 38mm wastegates work. But i would make a good EG priority twin scroll mani. If you like off the self option yes youll need two 44 -45 46mm wastegates since no off th self WG priority divided setup exists.
If you want the 60mm single wastegate on a divided setup this works too and MIGHT help with unequal backpressure problems because of the different lever .(2 cylinders hit on a bigger level on the inside and the other 2 cylinders hit on the smaller side of the tyrbine wheel)
If you choose this way beware you need a masterfull welder because the divider must be all the way to the wastegate piston. The longer the 2-1 collector there the better for anti reversion.
If you want to craft some crazy wizardy try dual Y divided manifold. The wastegates will be on the two 2 to 1 collectors half the way to the turbo, and then use two pipes to the turbo.
Thats what ill do with my setup. Having length after the wastegate you normalise the flow again before the turbo.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

I am familar with how to make it better if cost time and space was not an issue.. I have no space to use an old 46mm straight on the collector without the 90deg bend since this motor is fitted in a civic EF. . But the newer style 44 or a turbo smart 50mm will fit. But will a teardrop wastegate exit and a 44 mm make a lot of differance with a gt35r or bigger turbo for holding the boost down compared to the setup I have? Is it worth doiong or do I have to live with this creep issues.. A teardrop thing and a bigger exit is about how much how much <i want to cut and weld in this pretty pricey manifold.. If I had made it myself maybe welding another port to it would be an alternative.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Originally Posted by The sweed View Post
I have one of the earliest full-race ramhorn manifolds on my 84mm b16 vtec with a gt35r. It has NO tear drop design and is just a 90 deg 46mm port out the collector. I changed the flange and have a tial 46mm WG on it and when running the engine without a wastegate spring I start building boost around 6-7000 rpm and it peaks at 20psi at around 9500. that is at full load in 4th gear..

I want to hold the boost down in lower gears.. It is not 20 psi there but I still wants to be able to lower boost more then that in the higher gears aswell. The tial 46 I got needs a 90 deg bend between the wastegate and collector because of itīs size and I donīt know how much that effects things.. Somewhere down the line I will probebly get my 4wd parts on the car and a bigger motor with a twinscroll turbo that needs 2 wastegates.. 2pc 46īs wont happen so I need another wastegate some time anyway.. So maybe a Tial 44 M-VR or turbosmart 50mm would be a good ide and a teardrop exit.. a 60mm feels to big and I am afraid it will be difficult to regulate boost.. People with 1000whp setups and topmounts.. Is it enough for them with two 44mm wg to hold boost down of the line with big as 72-76mm turbos?
first off all...what spring you have inside??
full race ramhorn and 46mm for sure not boost creep...are you sure everything is ok???wastegate leak????etc etc???
and off course forget all these about twin scroll...you haven’t sfwd car...
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

But will a teardrop wastegate exit and a 44 mm make a lot of differance with a gt35r or bigger turbo for holding the boost down compared to the setup I have? Is it worth doiong or do I have to live with this creep issues.. A teardrop thing and a bigger exit is about how much how much <i want to cut and weld in this pretty pricey manifold.. If I had made it myself maybe welding another port to it would be an alternative.
If you are willing to cut and make new wastagate exit yes a teardrop will help alot. But It should have the same size with the wastegate piston.
Turbosmart 50mm is probably the best bet.
Other than that with even bigger turbo from a GT35 later youll probably need to make guess work.
My guess is that if you really want perfect control with a bigger turbo than GT35 like an S362 SXE youll have to
go for new manifold all together with more wastegate priority.

first off all...what spring you have inside??
full race ramhorn and 46mm for sure not boost creep...are you sure everything is ok???wastegate leak????etc etc???
He said he even removed the spring and still creeped
and off course forget all these about twin scroll...you haven’t sfwd car...
SFWD dont use twin scroll because they dont let the gas pedal anyway
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr View Post
If you are willing to cut and make new wastagate exit yes a teardrop will help alot. But It should have the same size with the wastegate piston.
Turbosmart 50mm is probably the best bet.
Other than that with even bigger turbo from a GT35 later youll probably need to make guess work.
My guess is that if you really want perfect control with a bigger turbo than GT35 like an S362 SXE youll have to
go for new manifold all together with more wastegate priority.
you think is normal to creep with full race and 46mm?
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Originally Posted by fotis2000 View Post


you think is normal to creep with full race and 46mm?
Yes its the old design with 90+ angle on the wastehate exit. All the old ramhorns creeped with a low backpressure setup.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Even with the tear drop the WG is not a priority and the exhaust gas still has to take a 90 degree turn to exit. I would honestly look into a different design that prioritizes WG.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Im talking about this design that uses a cut elbow.


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Old 10-12-2018, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

There are many What IF scenarios here. Assuming you keep that existing manifold design and wastegate setup the following will also have an influence:
  • The B16A with a GT35 will creep more than a B18 and B20 with the same turbo due to less backpressure
  • A non-teardrop 90 degree "Tee" will creep more than a tear-drop shape
  • A ramhorn will creep more than a longer runner manifold
  • A larger diameter wastegate doesn't always fix a boost creep problem IF the problem is wastegate flow (position)

Apparently the new watercooled Turbosmart wastegates flow equivalent to a size up ie 40 = old 45, 45 = old 50 etc. You could consider one of those to help improve the overall setup efficiency too.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Originally Posted by The sweed View Post
yeah.. sorry ha ha.. I will try to make it more clear.

I ran the car without wastgate spring to see how low boost I can run. And how bad my setup creeps. I was thinking maybe it would creep and spool the turbo to 5 or so psi but it makes 20 psi at 9500rpm although it starts spooling very late.. Around 6500-7000 or so..It means that my wastegate design doesnīt work that good. No matter what wastegate spring I use I will never get under 20psi at red line. The exhaust gases goes through the turbo instaed of the wastegate even it is fully open. The old full race ramhorn manifolds are kind of known for boost creep.. The new ones has a tear drop design to make it easier for the exhaust gases to go through the wastegate. The result are less boost creep. But to my questions..

Anyone have any experiance if my 90 deg bend between the collector and wastegate will have big impact on boost creep.?

How low boost can you run on a ram horn with a tear drop wastegate outlet with a 44mm wastegate and a 61lbs+ turbo. Is there any appinions if a 50mm would be benificial? Or even a 60mm? Or will it only make it harder to regulate for a set boost target?

If using two wastegates on a 72-76mm twinscroll top mount style application are two 44mm wastegates enough to get the boost down to a suitable level for first gear? Will two 50mm be benificial or overkill?

I am trying to decide what to do about my boost creep issue with my gt35r and ram horn setup and still have the suitable wastegate for a bigger twinscroll motor later ..



This is a very old picture but it is basicly the same.. A little bigger pipeing now and v-bands etc..


This is the new design on the wastegate outlet.. "tear drop" design.

i understood your original post just fine. Comprehension here is lacking lol

i would chop your wg flange off and do the tear drop. It should help. How much? Who knows. If you have a welder and the right tools it shouldnt take more than a couple hrs
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

I can do the work myself. I have my own shop and a good ac/dc tig mashine. What I lack is time and money. I know my creep issue will be better with a tear drop and the new gen5 50mm turbosmart gate but I lack the experiance to judge if it is worth it or if I have to live with it as it is..

Someone has to have made the switch or got their hands on setups with a ram horn teardrop design with a gt35r or larger turbo that can give their opinion on how much bettet the creep issues got.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

You can try for a teardrop from an elbow pipe first with your own wastegate for start.
BUT if you want to buy a wastegate just for the creep issues you can deffinately can keep you wastegate, sell the manifold and build/buy a better one.
Untouched the manifold will sell for better money.
With this manifold design even a 38mm wastegate works

You must change a lot but just giving you an example.
What brand ac/dc tig you have btw?

  • The B16A with a GT35 will creep more than a B18 and B20 with the same turbo due to less backpressure
  • A non-teardrop 90 degree "Tee" will creep more than a tear-drop shape
  • A ramhorn will creep more than a longer runner manifold
  • A larger diameter wastegate doesn't always fix a boost creep problem IF the problem is wastegate flow (position)
+ 100
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

The whole setup I custom made myself accept the full race manifold that I bought straigt from Geoff him self the owner of full race when I took a roadtrip in US along time ago.. Everything is a real tight fit and if I start changeing something like a new manifold alot of stuff will also need to be changed and it will never end. As I said before.. the old tial 46mm is to big to fit straight to the collector. New modern ones are much smaller and a Turbo smart 50mm will fit without the 90 deg elbow I have now between the wg and collector. I have put sooo much work in this car and I would hate to change the setup much more.. I need to get a more modern ecu also and all the hazzel to make it road legal etc.. After that I need some seat time and enjoy it for a bit. If I would change the manifold I would have made one myself and design it more like a mini ram. The tig mashine I got is a kemppi master tig ac/dc 250Amps watercooled.. I couldenīt ask for a better mashine. Its the welder that needs more experiance.. (me)..
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

Then chop the flange off and do a tear drop jesus chhrist!!!

What are you wanting to hear here?
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Old 10-13-2018, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: Ram horn, tear drop wastegate size on 61 lbs+turbos?

It involves changeing alot of other stuff.. Intercooler,,bumper, oilcooler and hoses dumptube (wich I made so I can route it into the downpipe or under the car with v-bands), and I need to buy a 500 dollar wastegate. I donīt want to do all of that for a minor improvment of the creep issue.. Especialy when <i am saveing up for a 2l motor and a new better ecu.
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