Markaccord95

anyone just do pistions and rods with no sleeves. what kind of boost are you running. Motor to be installed in about 1 week with all my stuff with it (Everything from hondata to quaife) and im still iffy about running anything over about 8 psi on my 10.6:1 j-spec h22a. My tuner says it will be fine, but Ive also seen a lot of blown high comp motors in here.

D-SPEED

there was a member who recently posted his broken stock sleeve (b18c i believe)...he said he had been running 1 bar for 6 months on it w/ rods and pistons. He was pushing almost 400 hp according to him...

ive seen people running 8 psi on b16a1...which is 10.6:1 i think. That person had been running 8 psi for awhile, and he had a pump/FMU setup... I think you can run 8 psi on your 10.6:1 if you have your hondata well tuned. good luck

Markaccord95

no way in hell id run nearly 15 psi on that high compression on stock sleeves...... and I know how everyone is going to say "its all about tuning" but there is just a point where it doesnt matter about tuning and compression gets too high, this is the point I dont want to pass (The reason im asking this )

D-SPEED

haha i wasnt even suggesting you should run 15 psi..i was just trying to give you an idea for what they can hang with.

If that was my motor, i would run 8 psi. Maybe even get a headgasket to get the CR down closer to 10:1

VaporTrail

bleh, headgaskets

adam

pistons and rods and you're only going to run 8psi? stock sleeves will take more than that


[Modified by adam, 1:31 AM 1/11/2002]

93LSivic

Correct me if im wrong but since your runnin an H motor, arent they closed deck? If so I am sure it would hold up better than the open deck B motors. Food for thought

BlueShadow

are you using the stock JDM pistons or are you using aftermarket pistons? you do know that if you put aftermarket pistons (JE, Arias) in an H22 then you HAVE to get it sleeved (ductile iron??). I know Its true of USDM H22's so I'm almost positive that the same is true of JDM H22's.

adam

h22a1 was the only closed deck h22a

BlueShadow

wasnt that the white ITR owner? he said that the side of the cylinder eventually split after continued boosting. I cant remember how many miles he had boosted thoug.

BlueShadow

whos gonna pay for it if your wrong? I think that 7-8 PSI is the limit on stock internals if you want some sort of longevity out of the engine.

5thgen

I think hes trying to say why buy rods/pistons if only 8psi is being used.

adam

we're assuming he means aftermarket here. i know the limits of stock honda internals

BlueShadow

aftermarket rods and pistons yes but its still a stock sleeve..... I guess on completely stock I would do 7-8 PSI, with pistons, rods BUT stock sleeve maybe 8-10 depending on his fuel mgmt.

Its a lot harder to estimate what the stock sleeve is capable of, snce the first thing to go is the rod or piston. like D-SPEED said some guy was boosting his B18C5 15 PSI on aftermarket pistons, rods and stock sleeves. the sleeve cracked.

Adam you didn't say exactly how much more he would be able to take with pistons, rods and stock sleeves, I did. he will have to get it sleeved anyways if he's going with aftermarket pistons cause of the FRM liner in the H22's.

Just out of curiousity though MarckAccord95, why dont you just wait and get everything (pistons, rods, sleeves) done at the same time? or did you plan on keepeing it at 8 PSI period?

your aftermarket pistons and rods aren't likely to get damaged but your sleeve becomes the weakest link now. and with a high compression wouldn't you be exerting more pressure on the stock sleeves? the engine might last but I dont know how long.

EDIT and Adam, even though you may already know the limits of Honda Internals, there are people browsing this board that do not. the information was not just for you, but for everyone else to read.


[Modified by BlueShadow, 7:13 AM 1/11/2002]

Markaccord95

im going to build the spare long block I have, i was just wondering if anyone had interals done w/o sleeves. I plan to run 8-9 psi on stock internals, 550ccs, hondata 2b, pump etc. I wish I knew how much life Ive got though

BlueShadow

I've been told that aftermarket pistons on stock sleeves will destroy you motor. The reason it does that is cause the aftermarket piston will wear down the FRM "liner" in the stock sleeve. the FRM keeps the stock piston from rubbing up against the stock aluminum sleeve. once the harder aftermarket piston wears down the FRM liner the aluminum underneath is exposed leading to metal to metal contact. The sleeves aluminum surface will rub against the aluminum piston which leads to the damage I mentioned. similar surfaces rubbing against each other lead to a lot of heat and friction. the FRM liner is like a buffer between the sleeve and the piston.

Thats why people sleeve their block with Ductile Iron sleeves, so that the 2 surfaces are made of different metal. If I was you I would just run 7-8 PSI until your spare block is built, then once you swap out to your built block you can boost as high as you want to.


[Modified by BlueShadow, 10:24 AM 1/11/2002]

d mafia

i am using crower rods and je 9.0:1 pistons with blockguard. boosting 10 psi currently. next step is to take it to 15-17 psi on race gas. i know of a person who did the same build without resleeving (b18c1) and was pushing 27 psi on a turbonetics t3/T04B with race gas. they raced it for about seven months and nothing happened. guess he was lucky?? now they are going B20 VTEC with a xs T04S turbo.

BlueShadow

I know very little about the way B18C1's cylinders are constructed, but I know for a fact If you choose to use aftermarket pistons on an H22 then YOU HAVE GET YOUR CYLINDERS RESLEEVED! MarkAccord95 has an H22 not a B18, B16 or B20!!!

MikeAccord95, I dont know how much you know about the FRM in our H22, but I'd advise you to do a search on here and at http://www.preludeonline.com about FRM. I'm gonna see if I can find some old threads cause I've asked and answered this question before.

BlueShadow

Hey Mikeaccord95,

here is some info on aftermarket pistons and the H22 sleeve issue, I would stronly suggest you read the threads, also pay close attention to DirtyLude's comments, These links are all H22 specific.
http://www.preludeonline.com/showthr...&highlight=FRM
. http://www.preludeonline.com/showthr...&highlight=FRM
. http://www.preludeonline.com/showthr...&highlight=FRM
. http://www.preludeonline.com/showthr...&highlight=FRM

sgT

Your previous explanation is not correct.
No cylinder sleeve is made of aluminum. Water jacket yes, sleeve, no.
Even if its made of CRM, even the crv's one piece sleeve is made of a similar
if not the same material and there are no problems with aftermarket pistons.

Nobody anywhere has provided CONCRETE EVIDENCE that an H22A NEEDS to be sleeved.
Someone show me some real proof that you have to sleeve, because the shop
manual seems to show otherwise.

sloaccord

you haven't got one at all

is anyone certain that the h22a(1) and the h22a4's cylinder walls are designed the same? Perhaps the h22a(1) doesn't have linings?

VTC_CiViC

Just my opinion, but wouldn't it make sense that the A4 uses a stronger wall considering it's open deck vs. the A1 close deck block?

rtype11

I run anywhere up to 26PSI on a 8.5:1 LS motor and mark 6 fuel, i run up to 15PSI on the street on pump gas, I suggest you all get sleeves for this PSI, not because of the PSi which is nothing, just improper tuning will dramaticlly increase maximum cylinder pressure. you guys are not able to properly tune your motors for high boost and detonate, you have to ground out your knock sensor in order to tune total ignition timing and get it right the first time. If i detonate once with my motor it is all over.

BlueShadow

your right about nobody providing any firm evidence on the need to sleeve. but JE says that you should get your cylinders re-sleeved if your getting their pistons. so even if its not necessary to sleeve it I wonder why piston manufacturers suggest you re-sleeve.

read the four links I posted, when I posted my own answer I was trying to remember what everyone had said about FRM and stock sleeves. I eventually searched http://www.preludeonline.com and found the topics.

Regardless of what the "shop manual" says, If you can show me any cases where an H22 WAS able to use aftermarket pistons wth no sleeving, than please share it with us.

Lets say I'm wrong and you can use aftermarket pistons with an open decked H22? his boost is still limited by the amount of pressure the stock sleeves can handle. If he plans to boost no more than 8-9 PSI than I say its ok, but we still need to make sure that the stock H22 sleeves can handle aftermarket pistons.

sgT

I have been told by a few people that they themselves have installed aftermarket,
specifically JE, into stock both h22a1 and 4.

I am going to try this myself and see what happens. Should have a REAL answer
within 6 months after the motor has run for a decent amount of time.