hondamonkey

My problems are that 1) the boost keeps going past the amount it was tuned at(7psi), 2) Not really sure on how to connect the boost controller.

Questions:
1) How do I keep the boost at the lowest the wastegate spring will allow?
2) How the hell did my tuner tune the car at 7psi if the wastegate has an 8psi spring that won't allow it to boost under??

You guys here in the forced induction thread have been very helpful and I need your help once more. For those that haven't seen my other two threads:

My Setup:

Stock b16a2
t3/t4 turbo .48/a/r .63
tial 38mm wastegate (0.6 bar)
Precision 350hp FMIC
P-Fab Turbo Manifold
2.5' Downpipe--> 2.25 HKS catback exhaust
Hallman Boost Controller (not currently connected)
RC 550 Injectors
Vortech BOV
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
Tuned w/ Crome Pro
See Sig for dyno details


Shot with DSC-P100 at 2007-07-31




Modified by hondamonkey at 8:02 AM 8/10/2007

Autoworks

You keep the boost at the lowest setting by only using the side port on the wstegate, it'll only read off wastegate pressure.

How he tuned it at 7psi, I can't tell you. At .6bar it should be 8psi (8.7)

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You keep the boost at the lowest setting by only using the side port on the wstegate, it'll only read off wastegate pressure.

How he tuned it at 7psi, I can't tell you. At .6bar it should be 8psi (8.7)</TD></TR></TABLE>

So in other words, the wastgate won't allow over 8.7psi unless i connect a vacuum supply to the top of it?? As it sits, thats how it is setup....it goes from the side of the wg to the turbo vacuum port.

The boost goes all the way up to 10psi on the gauge but then I let off for fear of blowing my motor.....Boost Cut on crome is suppose to be at 10psi....is it possible that the gauge is slightly inaccurate and I am at 8.7-9psi?? Also, any ideas on how to run the boost controller? Do I even need one since I am only trying to run the lowest possible boost?

SOHC_MShue

its very possible that the gauge is inaccurate. Also where is the wastegate referrence coming from? If its coming from the turbo compressor then that is why its boosting less than the spring is set for. There is a pressure drop across the intercooler system.

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its very possible that the gauge is inaccurate. Also where is the wastegate referrence coming from? If its coming from the turbo compressor then that is why its boosting less than the spring is set for. There is a pressure drop across the intercooler system. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Is it necessarily bad having the wg reference coming from the turbo? Maybe the tuner did that to tune it at 7PSI? But would this also cause it to overboost as well??

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondamonkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is it necessarily bad having the wg reference coming from the turbo? Maybe the tuner did that to tune it at 7PSI? But would this also cause it to overboost as well??</TD></TR></TABLE>
no its not bad and it shouldn't cause overboost.

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
no its not bad and it shouldn't cause overboost. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So my manual boost controller has no use unless I want to up the boost?

DCxMagus

^

correct

where is your boost gauge getting it's reading from?

hondamonkey

The boost gauge is getting it's reading from a t'd line from the the TB.

hondamonkey

Anyone???????

carnot

have you hit the boost cut? you will def know when you do. if you are sure you do indeed have a boost cut and are not running into it then your gauge must be inaccurate. make sure there is not a leak in the vacuum line running to the wastegate.

DCxMagus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondamonkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The boost gauge is getting it's reading from a t'd line from the the TB. </TD></TR></TABLE>

what else in on that line? also what kind of boost gauge do you run?

I know my autometer one wouldn't zero out even with the car off for some reason it was always just past that little square they have at the zero mark, so it read kinda high but my Profec II spec B would read correctly from the IM.

if anything going from the turbo outlet directly to the wastegate would run less boost, since you have pressure drop across the intercooler and the pipping that is not being seen by the wastegate so when the turbo itself reaches 8.7 PSI the wastegate opens but you lose about 1-2PSI across the intercooler and pipping(sometimes even up to 2-4psi on higher boost applications) so that how your tuner tuned for 7psi thats all the map sensor should be seeing.

are you still using the stock map sensor?

also for a manual boost controller you don't install it threw the top nipple of the WG you install it inline of the line going to the side port.

a MBC works by "bleeding off" boost that that line sees, basically your intentionally making a leak in that line so that the WG opens at a higher pressure rate then what it should, so if you want to run say 10psi on your set you would go and set that MBC to "bleed of" 2 PSI.

so while you are running 10PSI the waste "sees" that 10psi as only 8.7 PSI because of the leak created by the MBC. the top port is used for EBC which work differently.

if your using the stock map sensor I don't believe they can read up to 10psi(I think they are 1.5 bar sensors and only read like 7-8psi) so I don't think your boost cut would be working correctly(but you have to research this on your own don't take my word for it)

now when you overboost does it just shoot up to 10psi or does it slow creep as you get higher in the RPMs?

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

what else in on that line? also what kind of boost gauge do you run?

I know my autometer one wouldn't zero out even with the car off for some reason it was always just past that little square they have at the zero mark, so it read kinda high but my Profec II spec B would read correctly from the IM.

if anything going from the turbo outlet directly to the wastegate would run less boost, since you have pressure drop across the intercooler and the pipping that is not being seen by the wastegate so when the turbo itself reaches 8.7 PSI the wastegate opens but you lose about 1-2PSI across the intercooler and pipping(sometimes even up to 2-4psi on higher boost applications) so that how your tuner tuned for 7psi thats all the map sensor should be seeing.

are you still using the stock map sensor?

also for a manual boost controller you don't install it threw the top nipple of the WG you install it inline of the line going to the side port.

a MBC works by "bleeding off" boost that that line sees, basically your intentionally making a leak in that line so that the WG opens at a higher pressure rate then what it should, so if you want to run say 10psi on your set you would go and set that MBC to "bleed of" 2 PSI.

so while you are running 10PSI the waste "sees" that 10psi as only 8.7 PSI because of the leak created by the MBC. the top port is used for EBC which work differently.

if your using the stock map sensor I don't believe they can read up to 10psi(I think they are 1.5 bar sensors and only read like 7-8psi) so I don't think your boost cut would be working correctly(but you have to research this on your own don't take my word for it)

now when you overboost does it just shoot up to 10psi or does it slow creep as you get higher in the RPMs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's an autometer boost gauge.
As far as what else is on the line, I'll take pics and post em' up when I get home.

Yes, I am using the stock map sensor. Does this mean that the most boost allowed would be 7-8 psi?? Or are you saying boost cut cannot work since the map sensor only reads up to 7-8 psi?

When i look at the gauge, while overboosting, it slowly creeps up as i get higher in rpm's. What exactly does that mean compared to if it were to shoot straight up???

DCxMagus

It's means you have a problem known as boost creep.

Basically your wastegate can't let out enough exhaust gas to stop the turbo from continually spool in the high RPMs

simply upgrade to a tial 44mm wastegate and your problem should be fixed.

it's a problem in log style manifolds.

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's means you have a problem known as boost creep.

Basically your wastegate can't let out enough exhaust gas to stop the turbo from continually spool in the high RPMs

simply upgrade to a tial 44mm wastegate and your problem should be fixed.

it's a problem in log style manifolds.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what my tuner said....

"did u try to see if the boost will go past 10 psi?

check the vacuum line go n to the wastegate. make sure theres no leaks. also try to connect a vacuum from the intake manifold to the wastegate. if that still dont work, open up the gate and put in a smaller spring"

Can I simply change the spring to a smaller one to fix the problem???

!moops vs moors!

BEST boost reference source is from the intake manifold.....as long as your engine can take it.

good luck

DCxMagus

well a smaller spring would be a band-aid to the problem.

this is what is happening right now.

you have a 38mm hole in your exhaust when wastegate sees 8.7PSI now thats 38mm hole is suppose to divert enough exhaust gas out of the path of the turbo to stop it from spooling. Now normally enough gas is diverted from the path of the turbo that it stops spooling and stays at that constant PSI (whatever the waste gate is set too)

what happens in your car is thats 38mm hole opens up but as you climb in the RPMs the exhaust gas flow is so much that some of it continues to bypass that 38mm hole and continues on its way to the turbo and since that hole is not large enough to divert all the gas it continues to slowly creep pass your waste gate on to the turbo and continues to spool it even with the waste gate open.

I'm guessing in your car your turbo spools stays at 7psi for a little while then continues slowly on its way to 10PSI before you let off.

To solve this correctly you have 2 solutions:

1. get a 44mm wastegate should be a direct bolt on now instead of a 38mm hole you have a 44mm hole that should be big enough to divert enough exhaust gas to stop the boost creep.

OR

2. You get an electronic boost controller such as the Greddy profec B spec II or the apexi AVC-R or something in that calibaur of boost control and you set that up to stop the boost creep.

What those 2 types of controls allow you to do it keep your wastegate shut completely until you hit the boost you want instead of having it just being pushed open by the pressure of the exhuast gas. So instead of the gas slowly leaking out as it is now without the EBC, it will spool up then slam the gate open, and hopefully if you tune it right that sudden loss of gas will be enough to negate your boost creep.

If you just put a smaller spring in there your still going to have boost creep but it won't creep as high so in theory you should stay within your tuned range but you'll be losing out on power since your just boost creeping to your tuned PSI instead of using that power through the powerband. You'll be continually accelerating but overall your car will be slower because it will only be that the 7psi at the very end of your engines RPM range.

I know its a bitch I had to deal with it on my saturn because of my manifold being too efficient for the 8psi I was trying to run I kept creeping to 10 then 12 by the time I shifted, took me about a week and a half to finally fully understand my greddy profec II spec B but once i got it all dialed in it wake a cakewalk to adjust the problem out of the system.

hondamonkey

This why I love H-T!!!

My boost is now at 7psi all day and night!! Turns out my tuner put the vacuum line into the top of the wastegate.....All i did was run it through the side port and now it's all good.

My only issue now is, does any know how to hook up the manual boost controller?? Because we did it the way the instructions from Hallman said to...and it wouldn't work!!

Any help would be appreciated!

D-booster

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondamonkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This why I love H-T!!!

My boost is now at 7psi all day and night!! Turns out my tuner put the vacuum line into the top of the waste gate.....All i did was run it through the side port and now it's all good.

My only issue now is, does any know how to hook up the manual boost controller?? Because we did it the way the instructions from Hallman said to...and it wouldn't work!!

Any help would be appreciated!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Man..Your lucky you have a boost cut or the fact that you let off the peddle, that could easly blow your motor. Well with a mbc you can use it both ways... you can you it to bleed off pressure that the side port of waste gate see's which will allow more boost or you can use it to add pressure to the top port of waste gate which will also increase boost. If you use the top port of waste gate make sure you leave the side port connected to a vac/boost source..preferably one off of the turbo compressor side. If you use the side port get a good vac/ boost source from the brake boost or intake mani as you want pressure that the engine see's. hope this help.

DCxMagus

for the MBC take that vacuum line that you moved to the side of the wastegate, and install the MBC in that line between the WG.

Basically it's just going to bleed off boost to raise the boost pressure so it's a lot of tinkering to get it to the boost level you want.

Archidictus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondamonkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My boost is now at 7psi all day and night!! Turns out my tuner put the vacuum line into the top of the wastegate.....All i did was run it through the side port and now it's all good. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Please tell us who your tuner is so we can avoid him at all costs. What kind of a "tuner" is such an idiot that he hooks up the ******* vacuum line to the wrong port on the wategate? That's almost guaranteed to mulch your motor without boost cut. Good thing he was at least intelligent enough to put that safeguard in place

building boost

yea what an idiot. lol and why did he only tune to 7 psi. better yet, how.

hondamonkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by building boost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea what an idiot. lol and why did he only tune to 7 psi. better yet, how.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Apparently, you can tune it at 7psi with the .6 bar WG spring if you run the vacuum line from the turbo compressor because there is a drop in pressure. In other words, you lose 1-2 psi which would make it possible to tune it at 7psi. 'm just confused on how he got it to remain at 7psi while tuning it if the vacuum was at the top port....unless he moved it afterwards.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for the MBC take that vacuum line that you moved to the side of the wastegate, and install the MBC in that line between the WG.

Basically it's just going to bleed off boost to raise the boost pressure so it's a lot of tinkering to get it to the boost level you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That, I'll be doing next....just trying to figure out why the hell the bolts in my manifold keep coming loose!!!

TiAL

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by !moops vs moors! &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BEST boost reference source is from the intake manifold.....as long as your engine can take it.

good luck</TD></TR></TABLE>
no, it's the compressor cover


Modified by TiAL at 11:29 AM 8/14/2007

Fitti

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well a smaller spring would be a band-aid to the problem.

this is what is happening right now.

you have a 38mm hole in your exhaust when wastegate sees 8.7PSI now thats 38mm hole is suppose to divert enough exhaust gas out of the path of the turbo to stop it from spooling. Now normally enough gas is diverted from the path of the turbo that it stops spooling and stays at that constant PSI (whatever the waste gate is set too)

what happens in your car is thats 38mm hole opens up but as you climb in the RPMs the exhaust gas flow is so much that some of it continues to bypass that 38mm hole and continues on its way to the turbo and since that hole is not large enough to divert all the gas it continues to slowly creep pass your waste gate on to the turbo and continues to spool it even with the waste gate open.

I'm guessing in your car your turbo spools stays at 7psi for a little while then continues slowly on its way to 10PSI before you let off.

To solve this correctly you have 2 solutions:

1. get a 44mm wastegate should be a direct bolt on now instead of a 38mm hole you have a 44mm hole that should be big enough to divert enough exhaust gas to stop the boost creep.

OR

2. You get an electronic boost controller such as the Greddy profec B spec II or the apexi AVC-R or something in that calibaur of boost control and you set that up to stop the boost creep </TD></TR></TABLE>

A boost controller will not stop boost creep. If the wastegate is to small it can not flow enough exhaust out. Adding a boost control will not magically allow it to flow more air.

A boost controller can help achieve a targeted boost setting but it will still over boost due to the gate being to small. best thing to do would be to get a larger gate.

I know from personal experience.

I had a 38mm with a AVC-R major boost creep

Switched to a 44mm and no problems. This was on a Neukin Ram horn

a smaller spring would only help target boost it will not fix the boost creep problem.


Modified by Fitti at 11:02 AM 8/14/2007


Modified by Fitti at 11:04 AM 8/14/2007


Modified by Fitti at 11:05 AM 8/14/2007


Modified by Fitti at 11:08 AM 8/14/2007