TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes. I will easily question his choice, without hesitation. (He didn't choose that turbo for Sierra Sierra, the EFR Team did. I was there at Eastern Creek in that paddock the year Sierra Sierra took the title from HRS Garage, before it even became Sydney Motorspeedway. Luke Ryhall from the Tilton Interiors EG Civic even went down in size due to the change in requirement that they used for their EFR.

Making the fastest Time Attack car in the unlimited class AWD, and using the same thing for something in a different class in the U.S. is an entirely different animal for one getting into Redline or ETAC in the east coast. It's an entirely different type of driving and setup with different requirements. You don't go into this thinking you're going to be Sierra Sierra, Tilton, or others that have invested hundreds of thousands in their setups. Those are the pros and you're bush league. (Hell 90% of us are in that particular part of Motorsport). This is why these questions were asked in the first place including what tracks you were going to race on. Even the terminology has changed over the years to where now the proper use of the word twin scroll has finally outlived some of its marketing misuse.

BTW, I love the "strawman" attempt on the transmission chart. I see what you did there. That's actually kinda funny, although you missed the entire point of it... And you did overdo it with all the pictures of a drag racing CRX with it's bottom mount manifold when you were talking about Circuit Racing and Time Attack. Make up your mind here when you rant. Please... Focus.

After all of that...., it looks like you had already made up your mind to go with the Full-Race stuff in the first place. Why ask our opinion here? Or was it for simple validation of your choice for us to make sure you got the super thumbs up from us here?

Tell you what.. I'll do it for you. Then you can get all that out of the way.. How's that sound?

FULL RACE!!! TWIN SCROLL!! TURBOS & TIRES & INSTAGRAM & FACEBOOK MEMES!!

My goodness man. You had me all excited going into more Time Attack builds and utilization (after you knowingly could have created a separate thread instead of bumping an old one), thinking this would turn into a discussion about strategies of the car, what aero was going to be used, tyre choices, philosophies on how and when to attack,etc...... and instead you contaminated this whole thing by bantering on like a child about Geoff & Full-Race as though this is some battle on the playground at your old elementary school chanting "my dad can kick YOUR dad's ***!". (I mean, I get it if Geoff actually was your dad or something...I dunno, I don't judge ) But, C'mon, be an adult here.

You're either going to have a discussion about your progress on the build or turn this into your own self-fapping "Geoff for President! thread. When you want a real discussion about circuit racing and time attack, you let us know. In the meantime. well, I'm sure you'll find something to do to bolster your ego. You certainly have the talent for it.



So, either we can all either act like adults here and get the crux of the matter with a civilized discussion, stop the name drops and get real, or I'll just close the damn thread and make a fool out of both of us. The ball is literally in your court.

LightningTeg

Some personal buddies of mine (Professional awesome) run limited AWD in their record setting evo. A lot closer to a grassroots build, but its powered by a GTX3582R.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

In which case that size category makes more sense due to the driveline loss of the AWD system and chassis weight in the limited class. Depending upon the flow rate of the head and which track they're running on, utilizing the N111 68mm turbine wheel of the GT35R family makes more sense.

Finally, an adult way of transitioning the topic back to what's at hand here.

LightningTeg

That makes sense. the car is making right in the 600-700whp range

exgr

well, changing the exhaust housing is pretty easy anyway, lots of testing on dyno and track will be done. and no, i haven't made up my mind to go with FR. but he's high on my list of people to work with. but at the same time i'm not getting a free exhaust manifold from him so...

if somebody else out there want to throw me a freebie being the freeloader (few years ago i was going to call this delly time attack thing as "project freeloader".) that i am i will certainly take a closer look. but no, i won't really do any copy stuff though, so Sheepey, BWR, PLM, 1320whatever or other unoriginal designs would be out of the question.

ps, you're the one ranting like a girl above. lol.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

exgr

chillax yo... i'm doing a bunch of all motor b16a testing in the near future on delly-ohh. the turbo stuff is just at the "R" stage right now, the "D" stage will come later. feel free to critic but please back it up with logic and reasoning. then we'll be all good. btw, engine/turbo wise, there is zero difference in the rule book between Street, Modified, and Unlimited. anything you can do to unlimited engine can be done to Street... so if budget allows one can build an unlimited motor and run street class.

the STC Hunter turbo seems like a custom Garrett setup. you guys seen any data on journal bearing vs. ball bearing for identical setup? i've talked to a long time turbo builder in Taiwan and he said based on his 30+ years of servicing diesel truck turbo's he feel journal bearings are perfectly fine and gives up very little performance to ball bearing. when factor in the price, he said it's no brainer, just use journal bearing. thoughts?

Geis

Yeah I heard feelings trump logic and evidence too.
lmao

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

"Chillax" is still a word?..Umm ok. Anyway, please believe me when I say that the reasoning is there, as is the logic behind said reasoning.. The engine is the easy part. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. The turbocharger's behaviour can completely change with small changes to what you're asking for. BIG POWER, super-hyper-mega manifolds, and the like, will do the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish with something like a B16 engine. You have to look at the entire package which incorporates the use the correct sized turbocharger with the engine displacement, the air/flow rate and volumetric efficiency of the cylinder head in conjunction with the airflow rate of the turbocharger, in addition to the turbine wheel's ability to use its gas/turbine flow to work with the proper sized A/R volute. It all works together, regardless of class of racing.

It does no good to put something that is already a mismatch turbo in and of itself, and then try to put it with the displacement and VE of a B16 and say, "oh yeah, it'll work, because such-&-such did a bunch of other things (when they really didn't)". If you do that, you'll be very disappointed indeed. Not from the power output, but from the way the power is delivered. It will be laggy, inefficient, and I don't care what class you're in, it's going to **** you off.

Here's the information on the GTX3076R, that they didn't tell you.

Garrett Releases GTX3576R Turbo GTX35R

Now, that doesn't mean you should get a GTX3576R. What it does say is why many of us in the turbo world that have been doing this a very long time feel that this particular turbocharger has some inherent problems in its initial design.



The "data" that you're probably looking for can't be found on a dyno chart nor is it an issue of "power creation". The difference between the ball-bearing and journal bearing systems outside of the diesel world (which is an entirely different animal in the way of design, construction and utility) is the durability of the turbine shaft with the bearings in a severe hostile environment. Especially in the aftermarket / performance arena.

Now, don't get me wrong, journal bearing turbochargers do work for the majority of the types of use that people retrofit them for in many forms of racing, that are home to environmental situations that would be considered as hostile & abusive for a turbocharger. However, I feel that the most abusive environment for a turbocharger is a soccer mom going around town in traffic with 3 kids for 240,000 miles on the same turbo. She doesn't care about the oil except to change it regularly, she doesn't give a **** about "performance" or words like "efficiency" , "airflow", "volumetric efficiency", or even "power". She just wants to turn the engine over, drive the car, and nothing break down. And almost ALL OEM cars that run turbochargers are, in fact, using a journal bearing CHRA. So, they do, in fact, work in most situations.

Where's the difference? Why is Ball-bearing still preferred in Time Attack and Enduro over journal bearing CHRAs? DURABILITY FOR WHEN THE UNEXPECTED OCCURS. Just for example, if there is a major movement of the assembly, such as a shift from within the cartridge itself during a catastrophic event. (I.e. Thrust wear, overspinning from a sudden shift of positive pressure, and oil viscosity to name a few). Ball-Bearing CHRAs are more readily prepared to survive those occurrences (rare as they may be) than journal bearing turbochargers.

Journal bearing turbochargers need to have every aspect of their environment to be perfect in order to perform optimally. No matter what you thinkyou'd expect to happen in your form of racing, there's always something that you didn't take into account, that can mean the difference between a durable turbocharger, and one that has catastrophically failed.

Ball-bearing turbochargers on the other hand (when all proper equipment is used of course), don't have to have the perfect conditions in order to mount the turbocharger to fit, or have the exact right viscosity of oil to use. DBB (Dual Ball-Bearing) CHRAs allow for a little wiggle room for not having everything in place. (Except for oil feed).
The caveat of course, being that when DBB units fail, on average it's often more expensive to repair than a journal bearing system, but then, it can be the same for the Journal bearing turbo (meaning that it may cost more to repair it, than it would be to simply replace it with another unit entirely.)

For example. Say you have a journal bearing turbocharger that is on the dyno. Say about GTX3071R or Hunter sized. 1) You MUST make sure that you have the oil return line routed perfectly, so that the oil drains properly and doesn't cause an oil back up which will make the turbo appear as though you've lost CHRA integrity, when you haven't. 2) you must ensure you have the correct type & sized oil restrictor or you'll starve the turbocharger (so no eBay flanges), 3) the weight and type of oil is essential to lubricate the journal bearings properly so that the shaft floats on that layer of oil that journal bearing use...and finally 4) ensure that you don't blow any couplers off during a high boost pressure situation that may cause the turbine shaft to shift violently causing damage to the shaft, compressor wheel and thrust bearing.

Now, with a Ball-bearing CHRA, even though steps 1 & 2 are followed like the journal bearing, steps 3& 4 are what set it apart. those areas aren't as essential because the oil used is not in the same amount needed to lubricate the turbine shaft; only about 1/2 that amount is needed in the ball-bearing CHRA.

Either way, whether it is ball-bearing or journal bearing CHRA that you're using ,Water cooling is ESSENTIAL, even if you don't think it is, or that it is cost prohibitive. That's like saying that it's not needed to run a radiator at the circuit because it's expensive and yet you want to rev the engine over and above 8000rpms. If you think it's not a good idea to run a car over 8000rpms for over 30minutes to an Hour without a radiator, why does it make sense to run something that spins at over 20x that speed (over 200,000rpms) without doing the same thing? That's just lunacy!

This is why on the Journal bearing ones from Garrett, even though water cooling is optional, it's highly recommended that you use those lines.

Here's a great write-up on why turbochargers work BEST with water. (A requirement for DBB turbos due to their additional friction surface temperatures from the design of the bearing system on the turbine shaft.

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...er_Cooling.pdf

Now, your Diesel friend is looking at this from only one perspective... Diesel. Which is constructed much differently than any performance line. They're like the OEM, but larger, using larger oil passages, larger bearings, and larger shafts. They still need to be oriented properly, and in some cases, still have issues when they have thrust bearing shift. But the thing about diesel, is that few are needed to be repaired, and when they go, they're basically "throw away" turbos in the end, as it's not worth the cost to repair them. The question is, will you find the exact same one that you blew up. Because if you didn't, you have to retune the car completely from scratch due to the differing size.


For 1st time users, I almost always recommend DBB on their first run, because they then know in advance what's at stake. Since they do run a higher average cost, there's less of a possibility that the user/installer is going to allow anything to f**k that turbo up. So, they'll make sure that 1) water lines are used, 2) the correct oil restrictors are used 3) that it is mounted properly, 4) that the rest of the engine is in good order.

The problem with JB users is that they tend to "***-U-me" more; meaning that now the misconceptions start to enter their minds that they rationalize. Here are the few main rationalizations that Journal Bearing users tend to utilize in their brains:

A) "If there's any oil, its due to the seals" (believing that there is some rubber grommet that keeps oil splay within the CHRA)
B) "Oh, no worries. If anything goes wrong, it can be 'rebuilt' ."
C) "My buddy has no water on his turbocharger, and he runs at the drag strip all the time for years"
D) "What does it matter if the restrictor is a flange.. Restricted oil is restricted oil, amirite?"

Answers to this:

A) Umm. Not necessarily. It can be CHRA orientation (the direction it's facing), oil return routing, improper oil feed, too much oil pressure, etc. It many cases for an installer, a simple check of the equipment and orientation can solve a lot of problems without coming to the conclusion that the "seals are blown". But remember, you have a limited amount of time.

B) That depends upon what happened. What many users don't understand is that turbochargers rotate at over supersonic speeds. When one area is negatively affected, it can quickly spread to other parts of the turbo where failure is beyond just "seals". If the turbo isn't stopped and removed in time, the cost can skyrocket to the point where it's more cost-effective to buy a new unit than to replace / repair the old one.

C) Drag racing is completely different than other forms of racing. Oil temperatures don't stay high long enough to change the viscosity of the oil going through the oil channels, and the duration of the race isn't long enough (in most cases) to warrant going DBB. Plus, in Drag racing, the user has a higher probability of breaking something else, that might effect the turbocharger anyway. You know the old saying.. "If you ain't breakin' anything, you're not going fast enough."

D) I have an entire writeup on H-T about this. It does matter. Using the wrong one can easily cause a problem when the other doesn't. I'll see if I can find that to put here later.
This is why you see Ball-bearing CHRA run in ALL Time Attack cars, regardless of manufacturer (Expect Precision or Turbonetics). DURABILITY.

downtime1

Never argue with someone who clearly thinks he knows everything.

exgr

shodan: i understand the benefits of DBB center cartridge as well as the importance of properly duct IC + radiator setup. i haven't decided if i'm going V mount or just KISS and double stack with sealed duct work. i'm sort of looking at generic ebay 31"x12"x4" tall IC cores from cx racing? or will 31"x12"x3" be sufficient for sub 500 whp? Geoff said he have some cores for $500 not sure which ones i'll get some pix/specs.

LightningTeg

There is a $400 difference there. You need to do more research..

pogeeboy27

iTrader: (3)

If you haven't stumbled upon this one yet, this will give you a good idea of what it takes to get a 450 whp turbo Integra to handle a road course.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-r...build-2762721/

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

This is true. I think since Geoff seems to be his "Point Man" for it all, it seems pointless to give an additional "set of eyes" perspective from one that actually does this kind of racing and have proven testimony from others who have literally invested from my experience to support it.

But I'll give one last chance.... I'm a fair guy.

eBay cores? Really? okie dokie... I have no comment on that one.

Geoff uses PWR cores (nicest tube/fin) and possibly CSF cores as well the Garrett. A v-mounted intercooler is impractical and pointless given the engine bay design. You have a Subaru, Supra, FD3S RX-7, sure. A CRX or standard Honda? No sir. No es bueno.

Perhaps its time I save my keystrokes, wish exgr the best of luck and move on, ya? You asked the question about JB and DBB and the advantage/disadvantage possibilities. I simply answered the inquiry..

(I'm truly at a loss here.. Not trying to be a smart *** in any way when I ask this rhetorical question) Why ask for thoughts if you already knew the differences? Why ask anything at all if you know you're going through Geoff with anything said?

As Pogeeboy27 pointed out, PowerNeedy is a perfect example of how one should approach this from a more grass roots perspective.

Another one would be Boersma Racing. Simple parts, quality from the start, great track record. No CX-Racing or eBay nonsense.

http://boersmaracing.com/about/

exgr

budget build vs. best of breed. is that so hard to understand? lol. Boersma holds the record I'm after. If i can beat it with ebay parts, it's even better. lol.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes.it is hard to understand. No one does this **** that way for a reason. You can't go quoting FULL-RACE scripture on a Walmart-sized budget.

You'll never catch Boersma with that thinking. They kept it simple, but it wasn't budget. It was thorough. Read how they did what they did. There's sooo much more to this than just turbo parts and power.

You can't attack time with a car falling apart because of a cheap radiator and intercooler, garbage brake system, and no usable tyres.

So, you've answered my question ,(without actually answering it) which tells me how this will move forward. Good luck to ya, sir.

exgr

yeah, once I have more concrete plan i'll start my own thread about it here. i guess i should stop hijacking this one. peace out.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Safe journey. If you're interested, I'll see if it's possible to merge your updated posts to a new thread. How's that sound?