Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink? - Honda-Tech


Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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Old 03-14-2017, 09:03 AM   #1
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Default Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

So has anyone touched anything to what the title says? bad idea?

CRANK: h23/f22 ~factory~

Stoke/95mm
Journals

Main/50mm
rod/47.95mm

RODS: ~FORGED h23 EAGLES~

Length/141.50mm

Width/23.75mm

MainBore/51mm

PinBore/21.97mm-21.98mm

HEADGASKET/.026in ~factory~ Math based off of (.050in)

HEAD: jdm h22a

CombustionVol/53.8cc

PISTONS: /?custom?

clearnece with stock 31mm comp height. = (-0.02in) Dome refrence 1.7
Bore/88mm
Comphieght/30mm-31mm?



COMPRESSION
11.19:1

already sleeved.
sleeved h22

the numbers

Last edited by myaccord1993; 03-15-2017 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

Sure. Why not? It's been done, just maybe not published here.... Now you have to answer the bigger questions.
*Purpose
*Power/Torque
*Supplemental Equipment - Turbocharger / Intercooler / Radiator / Camshaft / Valvetrain etc..
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
Sure. Why not? It's been done, just maybe not published here.... Now you have to answer the bigger questions.
*Purpose
*Power/Torque
*Supplemental Equipment - Turbocharger / Intercooler / Radiator / Camshaft / Valvetrain etc..
Well the motor is going into my 4 door 96 accord. With it being so heavy my intentions are not to be the fastest. but to have a quick 4 door. Something fun obviously ive just always loved 4 doors.

Obviously the "stroker" part of the build is to try and keep the tq numbers high.

Also ive been trying to figure out what i will be doing with the head.. looking to be crower stage 2 cams or leave the cams stock ~ have been hearing no need to touch these , with either skunk or crower valvetrain to still debating the titanium over the steel fasteners out weighing pros and cons. . As for the block I'm pretty sure i have all the math correct. And I'm set in stone there.

My main concerns are increasing the flow of the head. and also injectors and ignition for the e85. From my understanding anything the car would need fuel wise from pump i need 40-50% more fuel. i figure with me driving it a few miles everyday the injector wont gunk up. I still have a lot of research to do. This was originally supposed to be an n/a build... i just didn't like the numbers.

I am also all ears to any advice and recommendations. first complete engine build.. maybe im over my head but im going for it.

Last edited by myaccord1993; 03-14-2017 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

There's nothing "obvious" about any of this, which is why I ask. "Strokers" can do one of several things which are, of course, torque related, but that doesn't mean that we know where you want that particular amount of torque to set in. That goes back to a particular "purpose" of the car and which turbo you plan to use. Some like to maximize torque as early in the powerband as possible, but don't mind that torque staving off at the midrange point. Others are looking more for midrange torque and still keep higher rpms for their type of racing (which a 2.0 or 2.2 litre could do) . I'm really not attempting to be difficult... (I'm trying to get you to be as specific as you can about your plans to help yourself out more than even us) but perhaps this is why you're here; to help answer those deep-seeded questions that you didn't think you needed to ask, but now you do, so that you can think about your plans more thoroughly.

We should all feel so lucky that forums like this still exist to get the synaptic pathways of the brain flowin'...

The camshaft question really is related to the turbocharger and purpose of the car. From the way you're coming into this, I'd honestly not even worry about camshafts outside of stock until you've at minimum figured out a turbocharger, exhaust manifold, design, and purpose of the car before you even worry about cams. If you're really that stuck, keep them stock for now; there's nothing wrong with adding them later (once you've researched a bit more of what you need after you've driven the completed car for a while) and notice the differences; just like you would NA. So, IMHO, I'd just keep them stock, and stay for a near-stock redline.

Head flow won't be a problem. This is Forced Induction, therefore, unlike NA, where you have to truly think about the CFM flow of the cylinder head, here, that's not nearly as necessary. The fact that you have a nice factory VTEC head is all you really need for turbocharging. Yes, the F22B and H23 SOHC heads do ok, but nothing really helps the rpm band like a VTEC head. You're fine even if you don't do anything outside of making sure that all the equipment is well-seated and properly assembled. Port & Polishing are not necessary at all here. Don't think NA.. Think Turbo..

If you're running E85, and plan to run that ONLY, then plan to run 30% larger injectors than you would for anything a BSFC figure would give you. I would make sure that running both 93 (or highest local pump fuel octane available in your area.. which you never listed) AND E85 for your purposes in case you're driving outside of your normal areas and need to fuel up. With today's electronic management, going too large is never a problem, but going too small is. So, if you plan to go just over 400whp , plan for about 850-1000cc injectors (Bosch Style EV14s are the most popular now) to reach that goal.

Check out the FAQs highlighted in Grey at the top of the forum, and look at specifically the newer materials Bolded/Italicized in Blue . Those will also help narrow down your choices and options of what you want to accomplish by way of manifold design, intercooler size/type, intercooler piping, turbocharger choice, etc.

I'll say this. Turbocharger / Exhaust manifold / Radiator / Intercooler come into play much more than the usual suspects of gaining power and efficiency than CFM head flow benchmarks and super-duper-static compression ratios of the NA world.

You're not in over your head. Just try to get out of utilizing an NA thought process. If you're not sure how the FI process works, this is where we come in.

Last edited by TheShodan; 03-15-2017 at 05:24 AM. Reason: grammar correction
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

You have a very valid point. I guess maybe i havnt picked my brain so deep yet. As far as fuels most common are 93 some near me have 98 i believe or 97. also e85. i figure with the compression im trying to run i need either e85 or 110.... because of det... i felt like after 300-350 id be pushing the limits of the fuel... i want to try and be higher compression with less assistance. as far as size of turbo probably something like a gt35r I hear there're good for 550.. so ill be able to make the HP numbers im looking for . and from my research the h22 seems to spool it fairly easy. Also thank you for the information you have already relayed to me.

As for the tq I really wasnt focused on tq in its self. just more or less went with a build that should in theory make more TQ.
the car will be DD, when its play time. probably do pulls in strait lines. the car is sitting on 2 inch tanhoe drop springs and koni yellow. but it would be nice to have a nice pull pre-boost.

Injectors i figure 1000cc. Just curious if im going to need to run multiple pumps... ect.. all lines will be replaced +30-35% bigger.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

You dont need to stroke it based on the goals that you have outlined.
I would focus more on the items shodan has brought up, particularly the turbo itself. "fast" spool can mean two completely different things to different people.

A 35R seems a bit large for your goals, there is no benefit to using an overly large turbo that exceeds your goals other then having room to grow later on, Everything is a trade off more power = less responziveness,

The only benifit to using a larger turbo is the fact that you can go for more power later on and even then I prefer to change turbos at that point rather then finding out a more appropiatly sized, and more responsive turbo would have suited you just fine
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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You dont need to stroke it based on the goals that you have outlined.
I would focus more on the items shodan has brought up, particularly the turbo itself. "fast" spool can mean two completely different things to different people.

A 35R seems a bit large for your goals, there is no benefit to using an overly large turbo that exceeds your goals other then having room to grow later on, Everything is a trade off more power = less responziveness,

The only benifit to using a larger turbo is the fact that you can go for more power later on and even then I prefer to change turbos at that point rather then finding out a more appropiatly sized, and more responsive turbo would have suited you just fine
thank you thank you, I may not need to stroke but i already have the crank in front of me it game with my block because originally, this build was supposed to be n/a.

also what about bumping compression up to 12:1? on e85
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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thank you thank you, I may not need to stroke but i already have the crank in front of me it game with my block because originally, this build was supposed to be n/a.

also what about bumping compression up to 12:1? on e85
Yes. you already have the hardware. Go ahead and use it.

There's no point in raising compression ratio. Like NA, Just because you can go to a higher static compression rato doesn't make it a good idea, especially for the purpose you've stated. In fact, it will make tuning more difficult even with E85. It's not magic fuel, and has its qualms. Don't rely on that to save you or to compensate for running the wrong sized turbocharger.

Get the engine part out of your head now. That part is done. Time to focus on the items I've suggested now
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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Yes. you already have the hardware. Go ahead and use it.

There's no point in raising compression ratio. Like NA, Just because you can go to a higher static compression rato doesn't make it a good idea, especially for the purpose you've stated. In fact, it will make tuning more difficult even with E85. It's not magic fuel, and has its qualms. Don't rely on that to save you or to compensate for running the wrong sized turbocharger.

Get the engine part out of your head now. That part is done. Time to focus on the items I've suggested now
well as for turbo i would go a size smaller gt30. i was just worried it would run out of breath. But from reviews quick spool nice amount of boost. as for intercooler from past history from my understanding this will delay spool, but give you more efficient ~cooler~ air to tune with. I would assume to make more hp on less boost, correct me if im wrong. as for manifolds
ill do some research i figure bigger throttle body at minimal, and any particular style of intake mani's that favor turbos and for the exhaust mani i may have some fitment issues something else i need to take into consideration very soon.? ive never owend a boosted car much less build one. So im having to take the baby step and actually study.. lol forums like these are a blessing. especially when they are fairly active.
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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well as for turbo i would go a size smaller gt30. i was just worried it would run out of breath. But from reviews quick spool nice amount of boost. as for intercooler from past history from my understanding this will delay spool, but give you more efficient ~cooler~ air to tune with.

Incorrect, sir. The exchanged air with larger surface area is moving much to fast to negatively affect the behaviour of the turbocharger.

I would assume to make more hp on less boost, correct me if im wrong.
You would be incorrect with that as well. Turbochargers like pressure, contrary to internet belief. Going "low boost" on a turbocharger that is not within its efficiency range for its CFM flow, would actually cause much more lag in-between shifts, regardless of static compression ratio.

as for manifolds ill do some research i figure bigger throttle body at minimal, and any particular style of intake mani's that favor turbos and for the exhaust mani i may have some fitment issues something else i need to take into consideration very soon.?
Look at that FAQs I was telling you about. That subject on manifolds comes up bolded in Blue.

ive never owend a boosted car much less build one. So im having to take the baby step and actually study.. lol forums like these are a blessing. especially when they are fairly active.
The tech forums get less attention sadly. the other nonsense gets all kinds of traffic.
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:46 AM   #11
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

Been running my pistons out of the hole -.02/ 20k on my turbo builds for over 10 years... H23V Blue Top 95mm stroke. H23A1 Crower Rods. JE H22 9-1 pistons 31mm. Final Compression Ratio 9.6-1. I just use a 60k thick cometic MLS headgasket. 500 whp 373 trq on both setups. 15 psi.

You want to use at most 10-1 compression piston which will roughly put you at 10.5-1 ish when done. No more bigger of a H22 piston. If a street motor but want higher boost of 700 or under. I would go with 9.5-1 compression H22 piston which would put you at 10-1 compression

However..... there is a simpler way... contact KS tuned KaizenSpeed. Believe he was selling some 9-1 compression H22 pistons that were used with H23A1 rods which should be at deck level (custom compression height) This is the easier way. Compression height on custom piston you would want at this point would be 30.5mm

However I like pistons sticking out of the hole... it cools the piston down like a nice fall wind over the grape fields of the napa valley lol
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

I find nothing wrong with going over 10.5:1 on an H22A Turbo application, and as long you don't short cut the static compression issue with super-thick headgaskets that may theoretically drop it down to a point where one may believe that running forced induction is "safer", but the fact of the matter is that looking at what one has as a static compression to determine maximum utility and efficiency is a fallacy. All it does is make you feel better. But is only one slice of the pie in terms of the determine factors of what's going to make this work reliably.

With today's tuning methodology, a lot of those fears are eliminated. Having said that, going to 12.0:1 is just putting more risk to the engine due to the additional factor of exponentially higher cylinder pressures and internal temperatures that forced induction brings. Those pressures are easily double what is seen in even a super high 14.0:1 Static compression comparable NA car. So, if you have what you have, use it. But don't go any higher, and don't use headgaskets to lower it. You can get the 9.0:1 Pistons that are suggested, but at this point you're throwing good money after bad. Look at what you have, get the right tuner, and then decide what makes more sense for your needs. It will more than likely be just fine.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

well if you scroll up to OP, I posted a picture of the numbers Im sitting on depending on exact measurements ill be no higher then 11.2:1 with .05 head gasket. If i have the pistons cut.. ill run normal thickness head gasket. << really would like too. at the moment I'm sticking with it. as for the F.A.Q. ill jump on there in a few and do some more research on the manifold
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

any recommendations on crank and rod bearings? getting ready to assemble block.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

ACL non race should be available, rod, mains, thrust.... PLASTIGAUGE!!!!!
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:53 PM   #16
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

OEM Bearings never went wrong from my experience. Clevite is a second. I was never an ACL fan. But either way, as ESP.net suggested, PLASTIGAUGE or Micrometer, please!
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:53 AM   #17
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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OEM Bearings never went wrong from my experience. Clevite is a second. I was never an ACL fan. But either way, as ESP.net suggested, PLASTIGAUGE or Micrometer, please!
When I go to get everything balanced and bored i will probably ask him to pick me up a set and request that he plastigauge i will be running a tad bit tighter oil clearance. rods are Im trying to get a hold of some pistons now.. probably gonna go custom cut. with stock thickness head gasket... really trying to have 0.0000 with the pistons at its highest point. gotta whip something up.

heres what i kinda got going maybe a little less compression but id like 11;1
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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When I go to get everything balanced and bored i will probably ask him to pick me up a set and request that he plastigauge i will be running a tad bit tighter oil clearance. rods are Im trying to get a hold of some pistons now.. probably gonna go custom cut. with stock thickness head gasket... really trying to have 0.0000 with the pistons at its highest point. gotta whip something up.

heres what i kinda got going maybe a little less compression but id like 11;1
Your machinist will plastigage first, then order the bearings. Unlike aftermarket companies, OEM is sold in halves, (if you go that route). You don't just "take a set" and throw them on there. Chances are, however, that they will match the original crankshaft, but if you need the conversion chart (honda OEM goes by color,) just ask. You'll need an email address to get the file to print and send to them.
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Old 04-09-2017, 02:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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Your machinist will plastigage first, then order the bearings. Unlike aftermarket companies, OEM is sold in halves, (if you go that route). You don't just "take a set" and throw them on there. Chances are, however, that they will match the original crankshaft, but if you need the conversion chart (honda OEM goes by color,) just ask. You'll need an email address to get the file to print and send to them.
any opinion on tighter oil clearance?
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Myaccord1993's H22A Sleeved Turbo Stroker w/ E85 Concept. Whadoyathink?

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any opinion on tighter oil clearance?
I don't.pain and simple. For recharging, run it a little on the loser side if going aftermarket. If going oem, the oil clearances are fine, because the factory runs then a little lose anyway..
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