Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

:thumbup:

It's exactly the same clearances with what I did on the first two builds I made since '09. I did turn the crank too to get me to my preferred clearances while using ACL standard(non race) bearings.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I like that theory except for the piston to head clearance was .060". Thats Alot of distance to "squish" out. Nothing really added up last year.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I would use OEM bearings before I would turn the crank or open up the rods!!!

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

OEM red wasn't thin enough. ACL Race XTR was barely in spec. I wanted looser. This was my only option.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

The machine shop wasn’t able to take as much off of main journal #5 as I requested. They said it was in danger of becoming out of round. I don’t understand how taking a few tenths is fine but a few more and it would get out of round but who am I to argue. I needed half a thousandths extra clearance on the rods so they split the difference between the rod and the journals. Very good customer service there and quick turn around times. This cost me $110.

Material removed:
Rod big ends: +.0002 ~ 0003”
Rod journals: -.0002 ~ 0003”
Main journal #1: -.0002”
Main journal #5: -.0005”

Main1 new clearance: A little less than .002”, we’ll call it .0018
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...CrankMain1.jpg

Main2 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...CrankMain2.jpg

Main3 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...CrankMain3.jpg

Main4 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...CrankMain4.jpg

Main5 new clearance: .0015”, I had hoped for closer to 20 but 15 ten thou will do.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...CrankMain5.jpg

Rod1 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/.../CrankRod1.jpg

Rod2 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/.../CrankRod2.jpg

Rod3 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/.../CrankRod3.jpg

Rod4 new clearance: .002”
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...rankRod4-1.jpg

Main5 is the only clearance that concerns me. It was about .0015 before machine work and its .0015” after machine work. Maybe it’s the plastigage, but I remeasured it 10 times. However its in factory spec and the last journal can be a little tighter than the rest so it'll do.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Thank you, sir. Holy crap, I didn't have to read much at all before my worries for my buddy's build grew. :/

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Have you tried giving the bearings a real good clean down Muckman? I used a small square of folded newspaper soaked in "3in1 oil" and lightly scrubbed the bearings back and forth until they were shinny before checking the clearances.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Yes I cleaned the main, the journal and the bearing repeatedly. I even tried swapping bearings. I mic all of them and used the thinnest bearing. There really was no difference, maybe a ten thou between them. I just left it alone.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

The "dull" coating is there for a reason....

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Ring gap, like bearing clearance, is debatable and varies from builder to builder. With more gap comes more blow by and power loss. But if the ring gap is not big enough the ends will butt from thermal expansion and you will crack the ring lands. So it’s a balance. Ideally you want as little gap as you need. The piston manufacturers provide a ring gap sheet with a formula to calculate the gap. It’s always bore times a multiplier and the multiplier depends on the application.

In my previous engine I used a multiplier of .006 for the top ring and .0065 for the 2nd rings. This time I plan on making more power so I’m going to use multipliers of .0065 for top and .007 for the 2nd ring.

3.3268” x .0065 = .0216 I rounded up to .022” for top ring
3.3268” x .0070 = .023” for the 2nd ring.

The problem I’ve encountered with 2nd rings is they come too large unfiled from the factory. My first ring pack had 2nd rings that were larger than my target of .023” so I had then send me another pack and they ended up all being .022 unfiled. That works for me but would suck if I was using a smaller multiplier, ie N/A. The theory is the 2nd ring gap is not as important as the top ring but it’s critical that it’s larger than the top ring to prevent ring flutter.

The oil rings are not supposed to be touched. They just need to be a minimum of .015”.

Summit Racing ring filer clamped to my table
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...4/DSC01076.jpg

Filing the rings can be tricky. You want to make sure you file them perfectly square along 2 axes. The sanding disc is perpendicular to the tool so that takes care of 1 axis automatically. I found that if you press the ring against the wheel too hard the ring will flex outward causing it to file on a slight angle. I can’t imagine filing rings without a good ring filer. This ends up being an excise in patience. You need to take your time and make many small passes because you don’t want to file past the target gap. I may make as many as 10 passes on each ring while measuring in between.

Using an old piston to square up the rings in the cylinder. You can use the new piston too. I just used an older one so I didn’t scratch up the ceramic coating on my new pistons.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...4/DSC01074.jpg

Ring all squared up in the hole and ready to be measured.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...4/DSC01073.jpg

Using feeler gauge to measure the ring gap.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...4/DSC01077.jpg

When you are finished with the ring gaps the ends should be deburred so they can move freely and not scratch the cylinder wall as you can see mine already have. You can use a deburring tool or fine sand paper. I use a sharpening stone because it’s easier to keep flat.

Getting the wrist pins installed. #4 rod is the new one from Pauter. The rest are reused.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...d4/DSC1033.jpg

Piston assembled with the rings clocked.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...4/DSC01117.jpg

I used this method to clock the end gaps. However "Engine Front" does not mean the exhaust side. It means towards Cylinder #1 - Driver side. When clocking the rings you want the top and 2nd rings to be 180* of each other so there isn’t a straight path for gases to blow by but you don’t want any of the ring gaps to be on a thrust axis either.
http://mikesbasketcase.files.wordpre.../xr500-29a.jpg

Next up short block assembly!

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Looking good! Those wristpins seem a little thin walled, but i'm sure they will be fine.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Looking like an interesting build! I'm in

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Nice build, I'm in. Thank you though for being a little more informative about the engine building procedures. Learning some good stuff here. :hugs:

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Not trying to be a dick, but it's painfully obvious from the pics the piston has hit the head and made marks on both.

Good like with the new build, it should be killer you have a great parts list.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Ya know I never even thought about it but youre right. They are thinner than CP wrist pins. Im not worried though.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

You're not being a dick at all. I even said that theory makes perfect sense. Im just shocked that the damaged bearing would allow .060" of additional movement.

...dick lol

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

pm sent

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

True, but there are many builders out there that do this without any issue. I can't see how if it comes off so easy it would matter if its removed or not. Won't it come off anyway after so many miles anyway ? Have you found any problems with removing it ?

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

On most bearings, it is a "break-in" coating so to speak.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I have to question though, why do bearings need "breaking in" ? There's nothing to really break-in about a bearing from my knowledge. They're not like piston rings to that degree. They should never come in direct metal on metal contact..

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I've rebuilt plenty of dirtbike motors and was taught to break it in how you're going to drive it. If anyone has anymore insight on that it would be helpful.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I would say its because on the first startup, there isnt going to be any oil pressure so when turning it over, there may be a slight bit of friction until it builds up oil pressure.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

On that same subject, if you rub off the soft "break in" film to obtain wider oil clearance then you arent really opening the clearance at all. All the bearings will open up the same amount when that film is rubbed off anyways.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Loving this build! Gonna use the information you're supplying for my own build(obviously don't have the funds to go to your extreme) but I think I'm gonna try running on 93 octane vs E85 just cause I hate driving around trying to locate a gas station supplies it.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

The same applies to 4 stroke engines. You have a limited time window to seat the rings with a fresh hone which requires heavy load, deep vacuum and rpm. The complicating factor is most everyone on here is adding a turbo in addition to breaking in a new engine. So you have to make sure its tuned safely before you "beat on it". I prefer NA if possible or very low boost during break in to keep it simple and safe. Some people break engines in on the dyno where you can minimize the risk while logging miles.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Makes sense, are you going to be breaking your motor in N/A then?

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Id like to but I dont have a header that will bolt up to my 3" exhaust. Precision also sells their wastegates with a 1.5psi spring which would be nice. I dont think it would fit my Tial though. I'll rig something up.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

So are you saying that the coating is to help oil retention on the first start up ? I can't see it doing anything other than helping the oil stick to the bearing. Then again, if you're using assembly lube it shouldn't make any odd's...


I've always seen it as a way to ensure you're seeing the correct clearance more than anything... Sorry if you feel like I've taken your thread off track with this man. I feel that is good to go over some of these things even if they are relatively simple. If we can learn something new then good. If not then it's no problem...

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

This discussion is definitely on track! Ring gap theory, break in practice and bearings are relevant to this discussion. If I didn’t want to discuss the details I would just plop down turbo specs and a 540hp dyno plot. (ballpark)

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

nice build, my sfwd build is somewhat like yours but with a little less compression. i have a 83mm golden eagle sleeved block with custom j.e. high compression pistons (12.5:1) with bigger and deeper valve reliefs and asymmetric piston skirts... compression should help with the spooling of my big turbo...

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Why bigger valve pockets? Are you running a cam over .500 lift? A few experienced people on this forum will tell you compression will not help spool at all. It will only help you under the curve with more torque (all motor).

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Looking at your old motor, looks like it spun a bearing and then the added play it had after let it then hit the head. Not Detonation.


As far as break in procedures, we build and install 45-50 motors a year here. All ranging from 400-800whp Evo/DSM's and a Few subaru's. All our bearing clearances are the same, and depending on power level the PTW is the same also (Higher power = PTW normally looser, Although it varies on what pistons you use too).

We break them in within 100miles for the customers and then tune them. In the 300+ motors we have built over the years, we have never seen any Rings not "Seat" with this break in procedure.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

This.


Compression doesn't help spool!

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

Something I think should be brought up, the crank still has the factory plugs balls on the oil holes. I find that this "V" shaped area in the crank will centrifugally collect sludge and debris. If you remove them you find 99% of the time there is crap build up inside there that is nearly impossible to remove by conventional methods. I have not tried an ultrasonic cleaner yet but i think it would work. I have my machinist remove them and tap it for pipe plugs. This junk can dislodge and go right into the bearings so I never chance it. A used or grinded on crank is something I would be very keen on checking.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

sorry my mistake, valve reliefs are not bigger just deeper. lets just see this is my first race build. i look around this site alot and ask alot of question whenever possible. currently debating on what rods to use and what turbo. but i know alot of people out there running high compression turbo motors. hope they tune in on this thread. like Miller.

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

261 duration at .050 with .497 valve lift on in
260 duration at .050 with .480 valve life on ex
my cam specs, made by sheepey/web

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

How do you break them in ? Have you got a certain procedure you follow on the dyno ?

Sometimes I have to ask is there really much of a difference in breaking a engine in softly to hard ? I've tried both personally, and have had luck with both, but have always favored the softer method (500+ miles, keeping the rpm low) for various reasons.

If the engine is built properly (round bores, new rings, correct hone) then shouldn't the rings just seat regardless to how its drove ? Surely there's enough pressure inside the cylinders even when the car's been driven around gently to ensure the rings are forced against the cylinder walls ?

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

the pistons are round, the rings are round... they will seat regardless...
normally we idle them for a while to get up to temp, change the oil, get on the dyno and tune... never have a single issue and we've never had leakdown or compression issues

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

I've had a think... So what actually are we trying to do by "seating the rings" ? If they are round, machined well (now a days they should be) and the bores are round and honed well then shouldn't they seal the bore to their best ability straight out the packet ? What is there to actually seat ? Surely if they're round and have no high spots on the edge that come in contact with the cylinder walls then there should be no such thing as "seating the rings" as all the ring will be in full contact with the cylinder walls ??

Re: Muckman’s Integra High Compression Super Build
 

For the Race motors (cars that don't see Street use) we will throw the on the dyno and do mini pulls to 5000rpm (no boost) and then let it decel by itself. Put some load on it then let the motor decel on the dyno. Then get it up to 4-5psi and to the same thing. After that, we pretty much tune them for power lol.


Street cars, the first 10-15 miles are probably the most crucial. We have lots of hills in the area, and we pretty much follow the same as the dyno except it is on the street. Lots of partial throttle and decel. At about 50-100 miles we are doing full pulls/dyno tunes and they are ready to go.

We use non-detergent 30w for break in, then switch right over to 20w50.

Bearing clearances normally tell what weight oil you use.