chet

well, i just ordered the kit and i haven't spoken with anyone in the import world who has ever run this kit before. it does not use a pump and instead runs off of boost pressure...

here is a link to the kit...just wondering if anyone on the board has ever had any experience with it.

http://www.andersonfordmotorsp....html

0xenocron

Interesting...although I dont see how it would be responsive and build enough pressure to make the water/meth injected fine droplets.

chet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting...although I dont see how it would be responsive and build enough pressure to make the water/meth injected fine droplets.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'm going to run a small nozzle at first...and i'm guessing it should atomize enough by the time it hits the turbine compressor wheel.

in any case, i'm excited to see how this setup works...as it will be 100% failsafe because it doesn't rely on a pump.

SPOOLINmatt

im a real skeptic on meth injection, seems like the next best bandaid since the FMU!!

chet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPOOLINmatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im a real skeptic on meth injection, seems like the next best bandaid since the FMU!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

what part are you skeptical about?

methanol + 93 octane works great when the setup is working. the biggest problem is getting the alcohol pump to cooperate.

a few people i know have run up to 38psi with 93 + methanol...with a 35r and had great results. i'm just not sure i trust my entire setup to a pump which could fail.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPOOLINmatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im a real skeptic on meth injection, seems like the next best bandaid since the FMU!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not a bandaid... It's a knock supressor and provides safer combustion on a given octane.

Now what I am skeptical about is guys using meth/water injection and tune the engine to DEPEND on it. We already have enough trouble as-is with maintaining the correct amount of fuel into the engine and keeping it reliabile (injectors, pump, EMS, regulator, etc...); now imagine governing another separate system for the meth/water injection system with another set of pumps, jets, lines and hardware. It's crazy that guys are using meth/water injection and go so far beyond pump gas limits. Whenever the meth system falls behind for ANY reason (laggy/failing pump, clogged jets, swelled lines, electical issues, etc), the motor goes along with it.

GimpyAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPOOLINmatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im a real skeptic on meth injection, seems like the next best bandaid since the FMU!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Research what you can do with them on a Grand National (or any other turbocharged car really, you won't be a skeptic anymore.

---

I'm also curious how boost pressure alone can drive this kit. The shurflo's and the like operate in the 80-100+psi range... don't they?

AFM is a pretty big name in the Mustang/Ford realm.

It seems to me they're relying on the turbo/supercharger to do the atomization on this kit.

chet

boost alone is supposed to be enough to pressurize the system and provide a fine enough mist to spray in the intake.

for 190 dollars...i figure its a small price to pay and i have confidence the ford guys are running this setup because it works. while it might not be as efficient as a pump driven system...i'm just looking to cool the charge enough to run 24-25lbs on the street. i don't want to spray enough alcohol to use more than the tank will hold on your average trip to and from the track, plus a few runs while i'm there.

in any case...i'll try to provide as much feedback as possible about the setup...

SPOOLINmatt

i saw a guys system fail temporariily and he had 5 volts of knock on his evo. YIKES.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

for $190 you could of baught a Devil's own kit and have change left over they cost $175 for the basic kit and $275 for the progressive kit with controller. I just ordered mine.

chet

link please...

GimpyAccord

Chet, they actually last quite awhile (pump driven systems). I mean it all depends how you drive, but most people I know that have injection systems are able to go every fill up. Sometimes two or more if they're on a road trip before the alky is low.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

link to devil's own forum and site. http://www.alcohol-injection.c....html

link to devil's own dealer. http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...606.0

I am sure there are more dealers out there but this is start.

servion

If you're interested in meth injection, check out the Snow Performance kits http://www.snowperformance.net/. They work excellent and they're very extremely. It comes with a controller that progressively adds in meth inbetween a minimum boost and maximum boost setting that you choose (via ***** on the side). They have a cool addon that you can run called "safe-injection" which lowers your boost to wastegate level if something goes wrong with the meth system (i.e., if you run out of meth but don't notice, it physically reduces you to your wastegate boost level).

This makes for a pretty cool combo. If you get both units, then you can tune the setup to run on wastegate without meth, and then have the meth controller trigger the meth injection to always start injecting at some boost pressure above wastegate level (so you can reap the benefits of meth injection as you beat on it at moderate/high boost levels). If you run out of meth, you're safe because it automatically drops to wastegate boost where you're tuned without meth.

Just recently had a hand in this one (keep in mind these are UNcorrected #'s at 6500feet altitude).

See the blue curve. This is on 91 octane with meth injection. '04 Suby STi with a Snow Performance meth kit.

0xenocron

Now that sounds like a well thought out kit.

Regardless, soon enough WI will be the next HT bandwagon fo sho

vtecmissle

there are few companies here that compare to anderson met them at pri/ check their website they have the performance to back it up

sohc_turd

The price is kind of steep for an achaic design. I believe this is how the earlier generation water injection kits started out as before electrical pumps where used. Also, i can imagine running liquids through the compressor side poses some longevity issues.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPOOLINmatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i saw a guys system fail temporariily and he had 5 volts of knock on his evo. YIKES. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly... The more the engine is running above the octane limit, the more extreme the knock would be. Ever seen the GN folks melt a motor in one pull because of a malfunctioning water/meth system?

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">boost alone is supposed to be enough to pressurize the system and provide a fine enough mist to spray in the intake.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Difference between our Honda and Mustangs = centrifugal SC vs turbo. The SC Mustang guys do not have an aftercooler -- check out the pic on Mr.freeze website: http://www.andersonfordmotorsp...1.htm

If you even plan on running an intercooler, forget about it. Once the water goes through the intercooler, the water/meth will wet out and you barely get anything for the first few seconds after the system engages. Then the water/meth would enter the engine in large chunks.

sohc_turd

tony the tiger,
so what would you consider "conservative" as far as tuning with W/I setup?

I'm trying to figure out where the threshold of a setup that is reliant on W/I versus a setup that isn't reliant on W/I.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sohc_turd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tony the tiger,
so what would you consider "conservative" as far as tuning with W/I setup?

I'm trying to figure out where the threshold of a setup that is reliant on W/I versus a setup that isn't reliant on W/I.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's going to depend on a lot of variables.. Well, pretty much everything I guess Compression ratio, power and torque, octane, displacement, cams, etc... You'd have to tune the motor without water injection and find the limits, and then dial in the water injection for added safety. This allows you to run the engine right at the detonation limit on pump gas, but water injection is introduced so you can afford to run optimum timing and still have plenty of buffer room. I am never a fan of "taking full advantage" of water injection and start leaning the AF's out and jacking up the timing and **** like that.

MooreBoost

You can't tune a motor to make more power with methanol without the motor being "reliant" on it.

Methanol acts as a fuel, so if you just plumb it in, and don't change a thing, you will be very, very rich.

People make insane power with it on pump fuel because they a) increase boost because of the cooler intake charge and extra fuel, b) increase timing because the cooler charge wards off detonation, and c) pull fuel because the methanol is a secondary fuel.

Running a kit such as the Snow Performance Fail-safe kit will drop your boost to wastegate pressure if the pump fails. Or you can run any meth kit in conjunction with a standalone that controls it, while watching EGT, IAT's, and adjusting boost accordingly.

In my opinion, those are the only two ways to have a nearly failsafe setup.

sohc_turd

Well, yeah... like what TOny already said, it depends on a lot of things.

Its kind of funny how the some of the GN guys implement it, add alky/h20 and turn up boost untill it dosn't bog anymore. keke...

No, but really... Ive been running the Devil's Own kit since last season and ive been had pretty good luck. The way my car is setup now i'd have to say its reliant on my 50/50 mix of denatured and distilled. I run a 360cc nozzle and basicly displace fuel till i get a 12:2 a/f. But i'm thinking about setting it up different this year. Having to boost & pray gets kind of worrysome after awhile.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MooreBoost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can't tune a motor to make more power with methanol without the motor being "reliant" on it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you tune a motor on pump gas up to the detonation limits, yes the motor would survive and run perfect ONLY if all conditions are unchanged and you assume the engine is running 100% consistent everytime (same temperature, same heatsoak, same weather, same humidity, etc...). The reason why OEM cars are tuned so conservatively is to allow room for errors. You simply cannot tune a motor at optimum timing and peak power and expect it to live very long near the detonation limit. More room for error and unexpected changes = reliability; however, we all know that a conservative tune robs power. A conservative tune also gives room for a bad tank of gas, octane fluctuations at the pump, hot days with almost no wind (poor intercooler airflow), etc...

By using meth/water injection, you can literally kiss the detonation limit on pump gas and still have plenty of safety. Like I said earlier, you tune the motor on pump gas only and find the limits of power vs octane. Then you introduce water/meth injection and tune the motor to achieve roughly the same power output as without water/meth injection. I'd tune this through more timing, or more boost. Usually I stay away from leaning out because the optimum air/meth ratio is lower than gasoline; and 11.5:1 AFR for example on straight gasoline is technically richer than say the same 11.5:1 AFR on a mix of meth and gasoline. I'd just let the AFR become richer and use timing to make up for any noticeable bogging or sputtering.

With this method, what would happen if the water/meth system fails? You will end up with a REALLY aggressive tune, but yet not enough to cause a melt down or severe damage. You will definitely feel it as a driver that the system failed, but enough leeway to prevent further driving. Unless you are in a really shitty day with crap gas at the pumps, a hot humid day, a plastic bag stuck at your FMIC, AND a failing water injection system at the same time As a result, what you've achieved with the water/meth system is being able to fully extract power on pump gas without the consequences.

If you are using water/meth to extract a huge surplus of power, it's way too risky. It's really time to move onto race gas if that's the case. It's easy to lose track especially when everyone is greedy at making more power. Think about this though, by using water/meth injection to push huge amounts of power way past the safey zone, it is no different than guys trying to lean out their engine to 12.8:1 AF to make another 20-30 WHP at the expense of safety.

sohc_turd

well put...

yeah, sometimes i wonder why i even run W/I at only 300whp, but its nice during the summer, and i like the on-demand aspect of it, versus buring up race gas when i'm not mashin it.

But this brings up another question. What is the consensus as to where the knock limits lie on low compression d16s?

I think the game plan for this year is to retune with neptune to the upper limits of pump, and then introduce a 1 or 2 gph nozzle.

good info Tony, thanks!