rash

I hate to start a thread with the whole "I heard this from a friend of a friend" kinda thing, but this topic is rather interesting and sounds like it could very well be true.

I was having a beer with a few car buddies of mine, and the topic of h22 sleeving was brought up. One of my friends mentioned a friend of his had stumbled upon a new technique in the FRM sleeving realm. He claims that micropolishing the sleeves will enable the use of just about any forged piston, and not just the current one(s) that Mahle offers.

Has anyone else heard of such a thing, or may have any input on this subject? It doesn't seem completely far fetched, but it does seem shocking that searching H-T and google didn't yield a single post or question about this new technique. Supposedly this just surfaced in the last 6 months, so who knows?

h-duced

BUMP for this one Im one of those who had to pay for the Mahles

redzcstandardhatch

never read of that...curious.

you adding boost to your car rash? call me if you need anything!

-adam

rash

haha hey Adam. You have a pm sir.

HiProfile

So you're going to micropolish them...and completely loose your ring seal? What good is cheaper pistons if your compression is an even 30psi across the board and you burn oil like a BP deep drill site?

You have to look at why FRM & forged aluminum doesn't work. Cast iron has lubricating graphite flakes (or nodules, in ductile iron), and iron-aluminum interaction does not produce much galling. Aluminum, like stainless steel, is notorious for galling severely when it rubs on another surface composed of the same base metal.

You can try it, but if it was that simple OEM's would have done it. Instead, virtually no OEM uses any sort of FRM/MMA process now.

Mikey3000

here's a sweet article on cylinder bores.

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/pdf...gFinishing.pdf

and another

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...finishing.aspx

raceACCORDingly

I read many many years ago on here or some other forum that it can be done with a special stone and honing technique but not very many machine shops know how.

rash

Notice: first link will NOT open in Firefox 3.6. You must use IE. I tested it on two different systems with FF 3.6 and it was a no go.

Thanks for the links. Very interesting info in both links. What really stuck out to me was the mention of "Nikasil coatings" in the second link. If Mahle uses this coating on their pistons, why not just coat the entire sleeve with it, and voila, now you don't have to use Mahle's pistons...

BTW, I see you made an impressive 700whp in an h22a. Sleeves I'm guessing right?

Mikey3000

yes sir, they are sleeves that inlinePRO uses, i'm forgetting the name right now. early morning brain-dead.

edit: AEBS!

redzcstandardhatch

you cant put a coating on a sleeve...the rings have the seat there! you silly boy. haha

ring seat is the most important thing when building an engine, realistically. bearings are kinda easy comparatively. you can run loose bearings, tight bearings , etc, and it'll probably work with the right oil pressure.

BUT...

if your rings dont seat, your engine blow ***. haha

if you want to use forged (not mahle) pistons, dont want to sleeve, etc, use an h23 or F block.

OR , buy a used sleeved block. LOTS of them popping up nowadays. all you really need to do then is get pistons, have them bored/honed to match, deck it, and build it. i almost bought a used h22 sleeved block a few months ago.

rash

Adam, I don't think the rings would have a problem seating in the Nikasil. Many companies (Porsche, BMW) have used Nikasil in their blocks instead of sleeves at all! Apparently Nikasil works great as it's own sleeve, and can be used on bare aluminum. But that really isn't the point of this thread anyway lol.

d112crzy

H23 has frm sleeves.

rash

Bump, anyone else?

extralargenog

iTrader: (1)

NO.



\

slowboy90

yes alot of h23s do use the frm sleeves and to properly hone the frm sleeves it takes a special stone and a the stage honing process just got one completed.

extralargenog

iTrader: (1)

NO ALL OF THE H22 and 23s use FRM sleeves... The ONLY iron sleeved 2.2/2.3L Hondas that are NOT are the F22/23 Ax/Bx blocks.


Find a Porsche machine shop. Theyll know how to do FRM sleeves, but do not in any way try to run a forged slug in the FRM sleeves... I dont even like the Mahles.

rash

C'mon guys, this isn't a Honda engine trivia challenge lol...

redzcstandardhatch

could have swore the h23 i took apart a while back was iron sleeves....but that was 6 years ago. haha

ESP.net

Even if the theory of this thread was somewhat true, it would not last as long as a normal honda recommended bore and hone with a FRM compatible piston, such as OEM or Mahle Gold Series. The coating of the piston skirt is also a factor.

Mahle Gold Series not knocking them but from everything I have seen, will not last as long as an OEM piston this is a given and could be as little as half life. This has been seen even with standard bore replacements and mic'd within proper specs. The amount that do fail tends to explain why and how touchy the FRM really is.

Only blocks that are NoN FRM in the F/H is F20B, F22Bx, F22Ax, F20A, F23Ax,

rash

I suppose I would take half life on a Mahle vs the full life on an OEM piston. We all assume that built blocks that see the torture of high boost or wild n/a setups will not last as long as an OEM block.

But yeah, something tells me I need to hunt down this friend of a friend and find out who he's been talking to. Do a little more research on my end. Chances are it's BS, but on the slight chance that it isn't, I will surely chime in here. Actually, I will chime in either way.

For the record though, I think a lot of people assumed the h23 was non-FRM for a long time. I know this all too well because I was one of those people...