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Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

 
Old 03-01-2019, 05:25 AM
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Default Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

I know there are threads talking about turbo builds but I need to know specifically about one aspect of the build. Iím already looking to pretty much have my whole B18b1 motor rebuilt with forged rods and pistons. I see all these options for pistons with a larger bore than the stock 81mm but I really donít think having my block stripped and sent out to be bored is really within my budget or time right now. I know there are forged pistons that come in stock size with a slight change in compression. My question is are there any serious drawbacks in terms of wear and damage to the rest of the motor if I put together a mild turbo build (no crazy power, maybe 200-250hp to start) with the stock bore? Or is it just as reliable? Assuming I have the proper gaskets, bearings, and head studs of course. Any feedback is appreciated
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Old 03-01-2019, 05:58 AM
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Default re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Boring out is nice if you can afford it. Gives you a perfectly round cylinder wall again, and 100% new surface to set in the new piston rings with.

However, if the block/engine is otherwise healthy when you're taking it apart, you can get away with doing as little as a ball hone in the cylinder walls, keep the stock bore, and after confirming your P2W gap and ring orientation on the new pistons you're good to go. I wouldn't worry about it, especially for your intended power goals.
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Old 03-01-2019, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Boring to standard sizes (0.5 mm and 1.0 mm over) doesn't really gain you much displacement, so people aren't doing it for that reason. It's mainly to start with fresh, straight cylinder walls that are sized perfectly to the pistons you are going to run. It really doesn't add that much to the cost of the block work, if you're getting other machine work done already. Here's an example of what my local shop charges (receipt is from about 1 year ago) - not sure how much just a hone is...maybe $30 or so? In the grand scheme, if the engine needed it, I'd just go ahead and have it bored.

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Old 03-01-2019, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

You don't need forged pistons/rods to meet your horsepower goals. If your engine is healthy bolt the turbo kit on and tune. If your engine is in need of a rebuild I bet it would be cheaper and faster to source a new short/long block.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by simike View Post
You don't need forged pistons/rods to meet your horsepower goals. If your engine is healthy bolt the turbo kit on and tune. If your engine is in need of a rebuild I bet it would be cheaper and faster to source a new short/long block.
This is also true. 250WHP is very reasonable with a good tune and proper, basic supporting mods on a completely stock motor.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

if you are only shooting for 200-250, you should leave the engine stock. im at 320whp with a stock b18b block and have been for a year now. if you cant afford a couple hundred for machine work, how will you afford a set of pistons and rods?
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by simike View Post
You don't need forged pistons/rods to meet your horsepower goals. If your engine is healthy bolt the turbo kit on and tune. If your engine is in need of a rebuild I bet it would be cheaper and faster to source a new short/long block.
With the mileage thatís on this engine, a rebuild is probably in order anyways haha that being said, what Chance and Dax said about a fresh start on my block doesnít sound too bad. And I know I donít need a full build for my current power goals but that is only where I want to start. With time I want to continue reinforcing and building the engine. I have low power goals now just because I want to get the internals together and the turbo on and over with but play on the conservative side in terms of reliability. Iím not yet ready to get the head ported or the cylinders sleeved. Thatís why I was thinking about stock sized pistons. I pretty much just want to increase the overall durability to ensure that I will have absolutely no problems before pushing excess amounts of boost. My question about the bore is more so about the reliability of the motor if I wanted to push boost to ensure it would still last me. I was thinking to just go with a set of 81mm pistons to fit the stock cylinders. Does this sound about right?
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by k20z1ej1 View Post
if you are only shooting for 200-250, you should leave the engine stock. im at 320whp with a stock b18b block and have been for a year now. if you cant afford a couple hundred for machine work, how will you afford a set of pistons and rods?
I honestly donít know how much machining would cost where Iím at because I donít know if my mechanic even does it. But itís also a matter of reliability. Iíd rather have a refurbished, rebuilt, and reinforced engine taking boost then an old og motor with 300k on it lol Iím looking at it as an investment as well
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post


I honestly donít know how much machining would cost where Iím at because I donít know if my mechanic even does it. But itís also a matter of reliability. Iíd rather have a refurbished, rebuilt, and reinforced engine taking boost then an old og motor with 300k on it lol Iím looking at it as an investment as well
whats your ultimate goal for the car? 300, 400, 600 hp, etc? If your goal is anything less than 350, find a low mile jdm longblock and let it eat. If its 400-600 go ahead and get a set of 81.5 pistons and basic h beam rods and pay a reputable machine shop to machine and assemble the engine for you. Over 550 or 600 youll need either css or sleeves and a much bigger budget.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post


I honestly donít know how much machining would cost where Iím at because I donít know if my mechanic even does it. But itís also a matter of reliability. Iíd rather have a refurbished, rebuilt, and reinforced engine taking boost then an old og motor with 300k on it lol Iím looking at it as an investment as well
Chances are VERY likely that your "mechanic" doesn't do any machining. I could be wrong, but most auto shops send out machine work. For a bore/deck/hone, expect to pay anywhere from 200 to 500 dollars. Google search automotive machine shop or engine building shop and start from the first. You're likely to find something close to you that'll provide those services. I live in BumFuck Middle of Nowhere and I found a machinist/builder about an hour from me.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

My opinion: you need to make the decision now whether or not you plan to disassemble the engine for at least an inspection, and potentially a rebuild. If you are going to have the engine taken apart, let the inspection of the cylinders dictate whether or not you bore the cylinders. If the cylinders are OK and don't need boring, buy 81 mm pistons. If your machine shop recommends boring due to damaged/worn cylinders, then at that point buy 81.5 mm pistons and once they arrive, have the machine shop bore the cylinders to give you the recommended P2W clearances.

You do need to figure out ultimate goals for the car now unless you like spending lots of money when you change your mind. If you know you're going to turn the power up later, spend the money now on building the block. Might as well do it while you've got it apart - you'll be looking for any reason you can to not tear it back down once you have it together.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by DaX View Post
My opinion: you need to make the decision now whether or not you plan to disassemble the engine for at least an inspection, and potentially a rebuild. If you are going to have the engine taken apart, let the inspection of the cylinders dictate whether or not you bore the cylinders. If the cylinders are OK and don't need boring, buy 81 mm pistons. If your machine shop recommends boring due to damaged/worn cylinders, then at that point buy 81.5 mm pistons and once they arrive, have the machine shop bore the cylinders to give you the recommended P2W clearances.

You do need to figure out ultimate goals for the car now unless you like spending lots of money when you change your mind. If you know you're going to turn the power up later, spend the money now on building the block. Might as well do it while you've got it apart
- you'll be looking for any reason you can to not tear it back down once you have it together.
Everything in blue, agreed x2. Everything in red, Holy... Writ...
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

I just spoke to my mechanic today and Iíve been doing research on parts and what needs to be done. Apparently there is in fact a machine shop that he takes motors to nearby for machining. Honing I believe is something he does himself standard with new builds. Iíve been deciding and putting together a list of parts I will need and Iím getting ready to start ordering them accordingly. Iím gonna start with stock sized forged pistons and forged rods and if the block needs to be bored then so be it. Iíll return the pistons and get new ones unless the cost is within my budget. Luckily my mechanic likes to consistently keep me updated on cost as he goes. Although I was wandering about bearings, head studs, and the whole valve train (valves, seals, springs) if anyone has any recommendations for those and camshafts. I was told forged H beams are good and should give them a try. Any objections? Ultimately, Iím going to build the whole motor. Iím not 100% sure how much power the block itself can take so Iím going to keep the boost on the lower side of maybe 9-12 psi to begin with until I know the block itself can handle it. 250-350 whp is a lot for a car that only weighs about 2300 lbs anyways lol Iíve heard of getting an oil pan fitted for turbo applications? Is that what Iím gonna need? Other than that, Iím putting the part cost together now. Cams, valves, springs, retainers, pistons, rings, rods, bearings, head studs, oil pump?, oil pan?, head gasket, intake manifold, and a hondata hopefully sooner before later. Itís 2:30 am over here so if Iíve missed anything then PLEASE put me on blast and tell me. Planning on making this good so let me know recommendations and suggestions much thanks
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Old 03-02-2019, 03:53 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
Iím gonna start with stock sized forged pistons and forged rods and if the block needs to be bored then so be it. Iíll return the pistons and get new ones unless the cost is within my budget.
You really should wait to buy the pistons until you know whether or not the block needs to be bored. I get what you're saying about returning them, but as a small business owner, customers who do this are a real pain in the ***. Besides thinking about the company you're buying them from, tear-downs, machine work, etc. takes time. You may end up in a tight spot where the return policy (if there is one) is close to running out before you know if you have already bought the correct pistons. You could be stuck trying to sell "NIB 81 mm forged pistons" here or on FB for less than you paid for them.
Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
Although I was wandering about bearings, head studs, and the whole valve train (valves, seals, springs) if anyone has any recommendations for those and camshafts. I was told forged H beams are good and should give them a try. Any objections? Ultimately, Iím going to build the whole motor.
Your bearings needs to be sized based on how your crank measures, and what kind of oil clearances you want. If you want to see parts lists, read some of the other relatively recent build threads in this section of the forum. If you're going to build the whole motor, you may as well go ahead and have the block CSS'd - my opinion. For about $800 (including shipping) I was able to have CSS installed and all the machine work (bore/deck/hone) done by CNC Werx. Just to give you an idea, I've got about $2,200 in my bottom end. If you're going to do fresh pistons/rings, I recommend at least having a valve job done to make sure everything is sealing properly. OEM valve train is probably OK unless you plan on revving higher that stock redline. I'm not a B-series guy so I'll let someone else chime in with opinions on cams, etc. Regardless, plan on at a minimum having the head resurfaced, valve stem seals replaced (Supertech makes good seals), and a valve job. Again, for valve train parts suggestions, read other recent build threads - I went with a Supertech / Ferrea combo. Again, I'm D-series, but I've got about $1,400 in my head, and that's with zero port work.
Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
Iím not 100% sure how much power the block itself can take so Iím going to keep the boost on the lower side of maybe 9-12 psi to begin with until I know the block itself can handle it. 250-350 whp is a lot for a car that only weighs about 2300 lbs
My opinion - in general, people aren't good at sticking to their original goals they come up with when they start their builds. Overbuild a little so you're not dancing on the hairy edge of what the engine can take.
Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
Iíve heard of getting an oil pan fitted for turbo applications? Is that what Iím gonna need?
Yes, you need to have an oil return fitting added to your oil pan for the turbo. Typically this is a -10AN bung. I mailed my oil pan and valve cover to Go-Autoworks and had them add the bungs. Valve cover bungs were for additional crankcase ventilation via a catch can.
Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
Other than that, Iím putting the part cost together now. Cams, valves, springs, retainers, pistons, rings, rods, bearings, head studs, oil pump?, oil pan?, head gasket, intake manifold, and a hondata hopefully sooner before later. Itís 2:30 am over here so if Iíve missed anything then PLEASE put me on blast and tell me. Planning on making this good so let me know recommendations and suggestions much thanks
It's easy to get nickeled-and-dimed by the small things you need. Be patient and ready to spend more than you think you will. Here are some small things that you'll need / that I recommend replacing that may be overlooked.
  • Every seal/o-ring/gasket in the bottom end, head, intake manifold/TB, etc.
  • Plan for a few thread repairs by your machine shop.
  • All crush washers
  • Timing belt / water pump
  • All new belts and hoses, and all new rubber seals in the cooling system (water pipe o-rings, thermostat gasket, etc)
  • If keeping an OEM ECU as a base for engine management, you should have the capacitors replaced
  • Fuel injectors
  • Full refresh of the ignition system - plugs, wires, cap, rotor
  • Clutch
  • Engine mounts replaced/reinforced if in bad condition

Many more things I didn't list - read those build threads. Good luck.
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Old 03-02-2019, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by Matteggy View Post
I just spoke to my mechanic today and Iíve been doing research on parts and what needs to be done. Apparently there is in fact a machine shop that he takes motors to nearby for machining. Honing I believe is something he does himself standard with new builds. Iíve been deciding and putting together a list of parts I will need and Iím getting ready to start ordering them accordingly. Iím gonna start with stock sized forged pistons and forged rods and if the block needs to be bored then so be it. Iíll return the pistons and get new ones unless the cost is within my budget. Luckily my mechanic likes to consistently keep me updated on cost as he goes. Although I was wandering about bearings, head studs, and the whole valve train (valves, seals, springs) if anyone has any recommendations for those and camshafts. I was told forged H beams are good and should give them a try. Any objections? Ultimately, Iím going to build the whole motor. Iím not 100% sure how much power the block itself can take so Iím going to keep the boost on the lower side of maybe 9-12 psi to begin with until I know the block itself can handle it. 250-350 whp is a lot for a car that only weighs about 2300 lbs anyways lol Iíve heard of getting an oil pan fitted for turbo applications? Is that what Iím gonna need? Other than that, Iím putting the part cost together now. Cams, valves, springs, retainers, pistons, rings, rods, bearings, head studs, oil pump?, oil pan?, head gasket, intake manifold, and a hondata hopefully sooner before later. Itís 2:30 am over here so if Iíve missed anything then PLEASE put me on blast and tell me. Planning on making this good so let me know recommendations and suggestions much thanks
The desired goal HP is creeping up! Lol!! 250-350, You've got a LOT of stuff listed here that's just unnecessary. All the headwork, cams, etc.. Stock head will be good for you to that level pretty easy. If you're wanting room for growth, sure.. Ferrea 6000 standard size valves and springs from just about any of the leading makers; ferrea, supertech . Hell, even skunk2. Lol! Cams- you may want to look for some OEM ITR cams. (There are those here better versed in the B series than I am that could better help here). Pistons.. You get forged pistons, IT WILL need to see a machine shop to have proper piston to wall clearance cut in. And I do not recommend running cast pistons, Nippon, etc.. Even on such a low HP level. I ran cast at that level and had 2 of them crack on me. If I had forged, that NEVER would have happened. Your block will be pushing the edge of "oh dear" at the 350 mark. Stock Internals should get you to the high 200, to LOW 300 range without real worry. H-beams are kinda the forged rod standard but, depends again on your goals and intended vehicle use. Skunk2, manley, eagle.. Quite a few to choose from.. Pistons.. Keep compression around 10:1, CP, Arias, Wiseco, Supertech.. Again, many options on vehicle use. What's the vehicle purpose again? Bearings.. King, ACL, Mahle, Clevite.. Great choices, options depending on vehicle use.. (I seem to keep forgetting the vehicle purpose!) Oil pan will need to be tapped for the turbo oil return line. Google that and read up.
FYI... 9-12 psi is considered moderate, not low, you'd be surprised. Not to derail anything with the nitpicks..
Ok so.. You've set your goals.. Now you need to figure your budget for this and see what unfolds!
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Old 03-02-2019, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Thread is beginning to sound like a dream build rather than an actual plan. Op, you have a alot of reading to do.
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Old 03-02-2019, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

I agree...

Split your horsepower goals (250/350) at 300 and turbo the stock block. If it needs a rebuild buy a long block from hmotors with a startup guarantee for less than a grand.

Don’t over complicate things.
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by DaX View Post
You really should wait to buy the pistons until you know whether or not the block needs to be bored. I get what you're saying about returning them, but as a small business owner, customers who do this are a real pain in the ***. Besides thinking about the company you're buying them from, tear-downs, machine work, etc. takes time. You may end up in a tight spot where the return policy (if there is one) is close to running out before you know if you have already bought the correct pistons. You could be stuck trying to sell "NIB 81 mm forged pistons" here or on FB for less than you paid for them.

Your bearings needs to be sized based on how your crank measures, and what kind of oil clearances you want. If you want to see parts lists, read some of the other relatively recent build threads in this section of the forum. If you're going to build the whole motor, you may as well go ahead and have the block CSS'd - my opinion. For about $800 (including shipping) I was able to have CSS installed and all the machine work (bore/deck/hone) done by CNC Werx. Just to give you an idea, I've got about $2,200 in my bottom end. If you're going to do fresh pistons/rings, I recommend at least having a valve job done to make sure everything is sealing properly. OEM valve train is probably OK unless you plan on revving higher that stock redline. I'm not a B-series guy so I'll let someone else chime in with opinions on cams, etc. Regardless, plan on at a minimum having the head resurfaced, valve stem seals replaced (Supertech makes good seals), and a valve job. Again, for valve train parts suggestions, read other recent build threads - I went with a Supertech / Ferrea combo. Again, I'm D-series, but I've got about $1,400 in my head, and that's with zero port work.

My opinion - in general, people aren't good at sticking to their original goals they come up with when they start their builds. Overbuild a little so you're not dancing on the hairy edge of what the engine can take.

Yes, you need to have an oil return fitting added to your oil pan for the turbo. Typically this is a -10AN bung. I mailed my oil pan and valve cover to Go-Autoworks and had them add the bungs. Valve cover bungs were for additional crankcase ventilation via a catch can.

It's easy to get nickeled-and-dimed by the small things you need. Be patient and ready to spend more than you think you will. Here are some small things that you'll need / that I recommend replacing that may be overlooked.
  • Every seal/o-ring/gasket in the bottom end, head, intake manifold/TB, etc.
  • Plan for a few thread repairs by your machine shop.
  • All crush washers
  • Timing belt / water pump
  • All new belts and hoses, and all new rubber seals in the cooling system (water pipe o-rings, thermostat gasket, etc)
  • If keeping an OEM ECU as a base for engine management, you should have the capacitors replaced
  • Fuel injectors
  • Full refresh of the ignition system - plugs, wires, cap, rotor
  • Clutch
  • Engine mounts replaced/reinforced if in bad condition

Many more things I didn't list - read those build threads. Good luck.
You have a point with the pistons. I'll wait for the pistons and rings to play it safe. I will look at rods and things for the bottom end though. My timing belt and water pump were replaced not long ago although I will start looking at other little things like ignition and the bung for my oil pan. I however already have the head and valve train plans in process and I am seeing tons of conflict between titanium retainers and steel retainers but I'm getting there. thank you so much though
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Oh trust me bud, I have plenty of tabs open on my phone and computer lol
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Lol the car is gonna be a daily. I intend to have a decent sized turbo although on the smaller side for less lag. I am still trying to figure out what that is for me though. in terms of cams, I'm currently looking at a set of stage 2 crower cams but I do keep hearing that oem styled cams are perfect for boosted honda motors if its not a crazy build so I'm gonna look into those ITR cams. It might be better for fuel economy anyways. I've been dd a v8 for the last year so no mater how you look at it, this will definitely be a step up in reliability, practicality, and my bank in the long run. And the reason I'm going so in depth on this build is because I bought the car for really cheap with 300k+ miles on it. I'm trying to invest in it to so it wont **** on me in the future and I can still have a little fun. Someone else on the thread recommended an after market long block and so I may do that when I'm ready for more boost way down the line, but I will try to keep my hp goal a little low because, like I might have said before, even 250 hp is a lot for a car that only weighs about 2300 lbs
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

So...it sounds like you will be paying someone to do the work, including the engine rebuild. Better account for that. If you want to save money and know how to wrench on cars, that will save you a good amount. It not, just hope your mechanic will put 100% effort into building your motor right without half-assing it. Not bashing the guy, just letting you know mechanics do and will cut corners.
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

I understand that. I'm having him do the internals and all because I don't have the resources to pry my motor open end work on them as of now. Intake, plugs, injectors, pretty much anything I can reach I'll work on myself
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Like I have always known...the only person who will take care of your car....is yourself. Good luck, man. Keep us posted with the progress
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Old 03-04-2019, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

Originally Posted by simike View Post
I agree...

Split your horsepower goals (250/350) at 300 and turbo the stock block. If it needs a rebuild buy a long block from hmotors with a startup guarantee for less than a grand.

Donít over complicate things.
This is solid advise. Super solid.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Matteggy's B18b1 Turbo Build- What are the advantages of Boring out the cylinder?

So does anybody know anything about the quality of Nippon turbo pistons?
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