fitseries3

i DO NOT intend to ever race anyone so im not looking for a drag race setup.

i want a setup that can produce over 300hp consistently and be in boost 2500-3500rpm+ but not run out up top. not looking to rev to 9k either.

i have an EG hatch with a built b20v in it right now that makes 234hp 162tq but i want something more fun. i drive my car to and from work and take my lady out on the weekends so im not looking to build a drag car.

i have a few options on motors to build that i own already...

itr long block
or
dart closed deck block 85mm bore

i already have a fully built, ported and polished gsr head with CTR cams(for now). i have a gsr tranny with mfactory LSD, sycrotech syncro set and LS 5th that i JUST rebuilt and has not been driven yet. i also have the ITR tranny thats in my car now i could use but i've been told the gsr gearset would be better for turbo.

i've read tons of build threads and everyone is building drag setups it seems. not my thing. i've also read a good bit about the borg warner EFR turbos and they seem to be somewhat what im looking for turbowise but i want some more input from people who have experience.

suggest away, any questions just ask, if you have hate please hit the back button.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

A Dart block would be a HUGE waste of your money, as would an ITR long block.

You say your B20V is "built". What exactly do you have in it?

fitseries3

bored to 84.5mm
supertech 12.5:1 pistons
pauter rods
acl race bearings
micropolished crank
pnp gsr head with brian crower spring/retainer setup
ctr cams
flat faced stainless valves
S2 ultra street intake (ported)
rc 310cc injectors
70mm S2 alpha tb

the dart block has yet to be built but i have a crank for it
the itr long block needs rebuilt
both i got for almost free

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

So toss a disco potato on what you have now, get it tuned by someone who knows what they're doing, and have fun

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Stock b20 sleeves bored to 84.5 AND 12.5:1 static compression?

keep that motor NA, you've taken weak sleeves, removed more material, and raised compression.. that motor would be a timebomb under boost... waiting to crack a sleeve.

And the dart block is a waste for a 300hp turbo motor... you could build a badass NA motor with that block and make 300hp as is.

if you want a fun budget turbo setup either pick up a stock gsr motor, a straight ls, or put a vtec head on an ls block.

get a Greddy b series turbo manifold, stick a gt2860r or gt2860rs on it (not the .64 turbine housing, internal wastegate), 3" exhaust and downpipe, 2" hot 2.5" cold intercooler piping, a small quality intercooler with a core around 24x9x3, decent blow off valve, 550cc injectors, walbro 255, chipped p28, wideband, stronger clutch, arp headstuds, OEM headgasket, bigger map sensor, boost controller of some kind and call it a day.

you'd have almost instantaneous response and you'd have a huge flat torque curve and a broad powerband. You could easily make 300hp and 300tq. lightningteg put a 2860r on a stock ls motor and made 300/300 @ 20psi on 93 without a single issue.

you don't need fancy port work, cams, methanol injection, hell you don't even need a vtec head.. you can use as much stock **** as you can, even the stock intake manifold and throttle body... you could even do it with a b16 but you'd make considerably less torque.

keep it simple...

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

The efr turbos are nice but you don't need a fancy turbo for the kind of build you want... the cost of a new efr would basically cover the cost of all of the parts you need for a fun 300hp budget build.

you can find used gt2860r(s) turbos in good shape all day long for around 650ish... and they would get the job done just fine.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Mother. *******. Disco. Potato.

fitseries3

well im not boosting my b20v at all.

the 300hp number was a minimum... i'd like way more

what about gt2871 with .63ar?

since i have next to nothing in the itr motor and it needs rebuilt i think thats the one i'll build. just do piston/rod and call it a day from what i gather.

would higher compression spool the turbo faster? i was thinking 10.5:1 would still give me decent low end power.

as for tuner... my boss/buddy is the the best tuner around these parts. i have no doubt he'd make some damn good numbers come from almost anything i could build

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

2871 will only make about 420whp at it's limit.

however you won't make much over 350 on stock internals... and that's on e85.

if you plan on running 93 octane above 300hp you need pistons and rods at minimum

higher compression doesn't make the turbo spool any faster, higher compression is more efficient and thus will make more power when properly tuned... it also gives you a lower boost/detonation threshold for a given fuel type. you an get away with 10.5:1 static up to about 400hp on 93 but I would seriously suggest methanol injection to further raise the detonation threshold as well as allowing for more aggressive timing and thus a wider, fatter power band

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

10.5:1 should be fine. Higher compression = better power under the boost curve. The GT2860R/RS is good for 350 on top of what the motor makes, so it'll easily carry you into 500 with the right supporting mods on a 10.5:1 B series.

fitseries3

i live a block away from BP that has 93 that i feed my car now. "e85" can be bought around here too but varies from e60-e75 and i've been told its not reliable enough to tune on around here due to the inconsistency.

i wanted to go 10:1 so its not a slow turd until i get into boost.

if methanol will make it "safer" with higher compression i'd be happy to add it in to the mix.

i already have a set of pistons and rods for the ITR. pauter rods and arias 10:1 pistons.

stock sleeves ok? would a block guard be something to consider?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the 2860rs actually flows less than the gt2860r... it just has wider efficiency islands than the 2860r... it also has a lower maximum pressure/shaft speed limit than the 2860r.. the map for the 2860rs basically stops at a pressure ratio of 2.5 or roughly 22psi. the 2860r map stops at a pressure ratio of roughly 3.15 or 31.6psi

the gt2860rs compressor map shown below has a maximum flow rate of 36lb/min. so you can't make 350 WHEEL horsepower with this turbo... maybe 325-330whp but that's going to be the very limit and that's going to be at a boost level of at least 14-15psi... probably closer to 20psi.



the gt2860r map shown below has a compressor flow limit of about 37lb/min. you could get closer to 350whp but you would be at the absolute limit of that turbo and you'd probably need something along the lines of methanol injection to lower the IATs since that compressor wheel at high pressures will have compressor outlet temps well over 250F. You could probably make 340whp at the limit running at least 22-25psi.



if you plan on making more than that in the future I would suggest a 2871r at least... the problem with the 2871r is the turbine wheel... you will run out of turbine wheel before you reach the compressor wheel flow limit, hence the 420-425hp power ceiling despite the 45lb/min flow limit.

if you want more power than that you either need to go gtx with a gtx28xx or step up to a gt series gt3071r at least. It's all about turbine wheel sizing with hondas... the reason the gtx28xx turbos make slightly more power is due to compressor wheel design, if staying with the more common (and more affordable) gt series then you have to step up to a gt30 turbine wheel.

of course if you wanted to go EFR the new 7163 is the way to go. Small frame turbo with a mixed flow turbine wheel that has better initial response and transitional recovery than your standard radial flow turbine wheels (basically every turbo other than the 7163 efr) along with the titanium aluminide turbine wheel that is lighter than it's inconel counterparts.

also it has a maximum compressor flow of 60lb/min... you won't reach that due to the turbine wheel sizing but with the right motor, fuel, methanol injection, and tuner you could squeeze at least 500-525 out of the turbo. the only oddball part are the turbine housing choices... t25 internally wastegated housing, v-band inlet with internal or external wastegate, and a twin scroll t4 external wastegate housing.

7163 compressor map

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

stock sleeves are fine... blockguards are gigantic pieces of **** that do nothing but restrict coolant flow

fitseries3

so when you say "the turbo will make 325-350hp" you mean thats what the car will have at the wheels right? not 325-350 on top of what the motor could produce itself. im not dumb, just making sure we are on the same page. i've heard people explain both ways. some say "this will make 300hp on top of your motors power" and some say "this is good to 300whp"

going with a bigger turbo would mean more time waiting for it to spool up and less low rpm boost right?

im not limiting how high HP the car makes but i do want it to spool rather fast. if it could be in boost at 3k and make 500hp i'd be all over that but not sure that you can have both.

wanting to stick with T3, i havent decided on what manifold to get yet but everything im considering is T3 with 44mm vband for wastegate. the car has 3in exhaust already and i plan to keep it on the car with the turbo setup.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Yeah Wantboost, please clarify that. I've always been told that a turbo's rated power is in addition to the power that the motor already has, IE a turbo rated to 350 BHP installed on an engine with 150 BHP will max out at 500 BHP.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

no. if a compressor flows 36 lb/min that means the motor will make 360hp.

the turbo can only flow so much air, the airflow limit of the turbo is the airflow power limit of the motor. if the motor was ingesting more air than the turbo delivers then there wouldn't be any positive pressure i.e. boost. boost "pressure" is nothing more than airflow meeting restriction at the intake valves.

if I put a turbo on our 680hp ls7 that flowed 36lb/min the z06 wouldn't make 360hp more than it does... it would make less power than 680 since the turbo would be an airflow restriction... the turbo would have to flow more than 68lb/min to make any power above and beyond what the motor already makes.

if that were true then you could put a gt1752 that flows 25lb/min on a 160hp b16 and the b16 would then make 410hp... which definitely doesn't happen...

but there's more to it than just what the compressor wheel flows. it's about the turbine wheel as well... the turbine wheel is going to be the biggest restrictive factor due to a motor having a larger exhaust gas volume than intake air volume... due to the fact that hot air expands.

that's why I was saying that even though a gt2871r compressor wheel flows 46lb/min or enough airflow for 460 crank hp that on a vtec honda motor you won't make more than 425ish due to the the 53.9mm turbine wheel being a restriction for the exhaust gasses leaving the cylinder head... the turbine wheel can only allow so much air to pass through at a given rate... once that rate is reached the motor won't make any more power with that turbo due to the motor not being able to ingest or exhale any more than it already is

go back and read the FAQs :p because it's way more technical than I'm willing to post lol

fitseries3

that answered 90% of my questions.... thanks!


how do you figure out at what point a turbo is too big and will take too long to spool for the power band desired? obviously i dont want a turbo for a street car that wont spool up until the motor exceeds 5k rpm

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

welcome to the land of small displacement and wanting lots of power...

your typical t3/t04e turbo on a 1.8-2.0 liter 4 cylinder won't make full boost (depending on boost level) till at least 4500-5000rpm.

and by saying that you've pretty much just limited yourself to the gt28xx class of turbos... even the gt3071r will take till 5,000rpm to make any notable pressure (18psi+)

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the sheer vacuum from the turbo ingesting lots of air at high rpm will cause that flexi-**** to collapse on itself... or worse, collapse and get sucked in.

don't come crying when you grenade a compressor wheel from FOD

fitseries3

too bad no one makes a turbo with a small exhaust side and a much bigger cold side

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

...Why the hell are you jacking someone else's thread with something COMPLETELY irrelevant?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

This is power level to the wheels only. You don't add "on top of" what a car potentially could do without the turbocharger. Just because the engine has a high VE Naturally aspirated, doesn't mean you add the two power levels together.

No one had or ever will calculate like that..where did this logic ever come from?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That do, all over the place.. the problem is that you get the issues from both worlds.

I think the exducer measurements of the exhaust wheel your referring to is in correct..

phaphon

My bad I will take it down posted it on the wrong thread haha I will be taking it off .

fitseries3

even after reading the turbo name deciphering threads its still super confusing.

basically i want 400+hp but dont want to wait till 5k to spool. 3500rpm would be great place to START to build boost.

of course, im probably looking at this all wrong.

im going to change my wheel/tire setup from 205/40/16 to 225/50/15 so it doesnt spin as much. also going to do boost by gear.

again, not looking to make a drag car here, just want something super fun and possibly for some time attack or road course action.