C-Murdock

Concerning the Turbo Prelude :

As you know, we here at Schaeffer's Auto Care Inc., have gone above and beyond any normal efforts to provide you with an engine with NO oil leaks. We were told by Golden Eagle that the block was sent to us READY TO INSTALL, only to be warned at the last minute that the line bore must checked. This was the ONLY warning/advise ever given. In having the line bore checked by Burtonsville Performance Machine, it was determined that the line bore was way out of spec and an additional $260 plus the cost of the transport to and from the machine shop was needed to be spent. Upon the first assembly of the engine, and initial starting it was determined that there was a significant oil leak at the mating surface of the block and head. We disassembled the engine at no charge, and paid an employee of Burtonsville Performance Machine that has more than twenty years experience, to inspect the situation. It was determined that the cylinder head was perfectly flat, but the block had 3 variances between the block liner and the outer surface at the oil return and the high pressure oil feed located in the rear center section of the block. Our attempts to correct this situation with Golden Eagle gave very lukewarm results as far as their recognition of the situation. Many phone calls were left unreturned and what calls were returned, Golden Eagle claimed it was an assembly issue.

Upon more research on our part and a second opinion from yet another extremely qualified engine builder and two paid visits to our shop (Dave, owner of Advanced Valve of Mt. Airy MD), we were advised to run a thicker head gasket that was purchased from Inline Performance for the amount of $309, which the cost was split upon agreement of Casey. Once again, we assembled the engine at no cost to the customer, and some minor tuning work to the computer. We firmly believe that this a very temporary fix for the improper machine work done by Golden Eagle. We have been told by both expert consultants that if it leaks again, the motor will have to be pulled, completely disassembled, machined to the correct specifications which entails a completely flat deck surface, and finally, reassembled and installed in the car with new gaskets, bearings, etc.

We here at Schaeffer's Import Auto Care cannot be held responsible for the cost of this due to the fact that this is not in anyway a fault caused/created by us. As stated before, we have already gone above and beyond to right the situation at hand at our expense. We will be willing to negotiate a very fair price if necessary for any additional work required.

Ben Schaeffer
Schaeffer's Import Auto Care

The Verdict: I have to pay a figure between 1500-1800$ to fix this problem...Who to blame ?

1.8EG-T

C-Murdock

also, with this post, I have no intention of giving Golden Eagle a bad rep. I am basically trying to get some recognition from all the people who criticized me earlier about my post on the leaking oil issue. This just should give them a more clear picture of what actually happened, since I could not explain the situation in the detail that my mechanic could simply because of my knowledge of motors....

falcongsr

what about the dowel pins being too long for the head/block? wasnt that the original problem when they tried to start the engine for the 1st time?

C-Murdock

this is correct. The problem was fixed and it continued to leak, even with stock headgasket, arp headstuds, everything torqued to spec etc....

tony1

I wonder about the credibility of the people working on the motor. Whoever recommended using a thicker headgasket to help seal a bad surface isn't too credible in my book. All these issues seem to keep coming back to your people. Maybe you should find a competent shop...

PrecisionH23a

First off, im sorry to hear your situation. It is very unfortunate you have to backtrack and spend more money to get everything running correctly. It was very nice of the shop to try their best to take care of your problems. I have never done business with Golden Eagle, but i know they are a very reputable company that produces high quality products. Yes, it is not their fault technically about your line bore. But i would have thought they would have asked for your main bearing caps to make sure everything was to spec. Your engine builder also should have mentioned that. I know when i had my block sleeved the machine shop had a checklist of things that they HAD to have to have the installation go through properly. It was also not their responsibility for the dowel pin problem, but when a block is said to be "ready to install" one would assume the dowel pins were checked. I have spoken to many people about this issue and i have only come across one example of the pins being too high. From what ive learned, the dowel pins SHOULD press into the block and head to correct the lengh issues. I guess you were that one in a million example. The only thing you can hold them reliable for is the deck of the block. Golden Eagle is a good company so hopefully you guys can work together instead of against each other. Even though they deny responsibility, i strongly believe if a company wants to keep a reputable name the would go the extra 9 yards to make sure everything is within spec. I have never heard of a company sleeve a block without checking a line bore, checking block deck, and look into other things that could promote problems. Golden Eagle is a great company, i hold a high respect for them. However, i think these problems could have been solved with better communication upon both parties.


[Modified by GudeH23a, 12:35 AM 12/19/2002]

Boostless97Lude

C-Redrum:
look, i don't think you get the idea of decking the entire block surface in order to get a level plane..... i don't understand how the concept is over your head, all you have to do to make it level is deck the whole block, it's the same principle as using a planer on a peice of wood, it take an other wise unlevel surface, and makes it level....


[Modified by Boosted97Lude, 12:40 AM 12/19/2002]

PrecisionH23a

tony knows his ****, dont start with him

SEFIxCivic

As an engine builder it is their responsibility to check all the clearances, deck, mains, ect... ect... That's what you're paying for when you have them assemble your engine. Honestly, if they only plastiguaged your bearings and gaped your rings, it would only take about an hour for them to assemble it. What did they intially charge? $500-$600 bucks? That's an awesome rate they're making per hour.

falcongsr

if you had dowel pins that were the wrong length, or even worse some dowel pins that were longer than others, then when you torqued everything down, you were putting some pretty strange sideloads on the block undoubtedly causing stress and strain in non-cartesian axes along the length of the block vertically and horizontally. (ok i am not a mechanical engineer but i really tried to described the torque that was being applied to the block/head.)

i think this action could have easily caused the misalignment of the sleeves with the surface of the block. its simply a force that was applied to the block in a dimension/axis it is not designed to withstand. even the stock sleeves could have shifted cause of this.

think of a cardboard box full of tall glasses that are as tall as the box is deep. if the box was really flimsy, as you carried it, it would twist and some of the top edges of the glasses would be visible if you were looking at it straight on. i think this is what happened to your block.

Boostless97Lude

whoops... my statement was directed toward C-Redrum.... i've been trying to tell him the same thing since the begining, but he never seems to acknowledge me.

LsTurbo91

damn, I feel bad for this guy. That motor is a money pit, its gonna keep on piling up.

SEFIxCivic

falcon, i posted that same idea on his other thread as the cause of his warped block. good to know that i wasn't totally crazy.. i definately agree that could happen.

falcongsr

here is the analogy i had on the tip of my brain but couldnt figure it out:

its like twisting a plastic ice cube tray to make the ice cubes pop out.

the sleeve could have been trying to pop out of the block since there was a little room for it to move up (since the head was lifted slightly) and there was uneven force at its base that could have caused it to move.

PrecisionH23a

as a soon to be mechanical engineer, side loads as well as torque loads lead to material failure at the point of most stress. basically like falcon said with the ice cube analogy. im really to hear about your bad luck, hopefully you'll get everything fixed. we're all more then willing to lend you a helping hand

rOby

i say u take ur darn motor outta shaefer automotive and take it somewhere else. hell, ur in maryland right....hmm JASON HUNT! lol, his rep here alone would make me want to discuss the motor build w/ him. get ur deck sleeved completely flat, and try again...goodluck on ur 3/4? time?

tony1

Much better analogy than the first attempt

bgod

in the end, building honda motors sometimes sucks. i believe in their response, vince had mentioned looking over the block if it was sent to them. though it's a shitty option, sometimes that's what you need to do.

sometimes, that's what happens when you start sending your block somewhere. then having someone else build the motor. perhaps, sticking with one person for all the work is a better option.

however, i just can't recall others having this type of problem with ge sleeves.

i'm really feeling for you. hope you get it all sorted out soon.

C-Murdock

As I read all of your responses about how the block could have been damaged it makes sense. It could have been a handful of things that happened to it to cause it not to seal. Of course we will never know, until the motor is torn apart and thoroughly inspected. I am continuing to drive the car while its leaking oil, just because I missed it so much and I enjoy just crusing around in it, monitioring all of the things it does. I will let you guys know if any other part of the block is damaged, when it comes out of my car in about 3 weeks. Until then, I baught a case of oil and fill it up every 100 miles, about half a quart. Its really depressing to have to continue to do this, I just wish I knew what it would be like to have a fully built Honda running well like so many of you do. It actually runs pretty decent other than an idle at 2k (it idled at 1100 when we had it first started, but when I drove home it started to idle at 2....possible vaccum leak ?), and baaaaaad gas mileage...Thanks for everyones input though, it is giving me other outlooks on the situation.

Speedworks801

I responded to your last post suggesting that my problem was solved with a flat deck after 7 re-assemblies with different headgaskets. If you want to solve the problem, GO BACK TO THE FLAT DECK!

The only reason they didn't do this anyway, is it takes more time to pull down the motor, than to simply remove the head. They are trying to minimize their costs. And rightly so.

C-Murdock

Do you have Golden Eagle sleeves as well ? Will the Inline Pro Headgasket work with the Golden Eagle sleeves and the flat deck ? some tell me that other headgaskets wont work with a GE block....

X-Mazda 3 Racer

O.K. guys, we NEVER said that the sleeved block we send out are " Ready-to-install "! The process we perform, which is sleeveing, is only one of many processes the block should go through. It is the ENGINE BUILDERS responsibility to check all the variables. If the motor were assembled here at Golden Eagle, I assure you that all these steps would have been taken to prevent a timely hassle from your engine builder. Here are a few things to remember:
1. We never send out a block and claim it to be ready to install, unless we perform all the work here.
2. It is not our responsibility to check the line bore. If you send your block here for sleeves, then that is all we do. If you want us to line bore the block for you, we can do that as well.
3. We never had the dowel pins or the head or head gasket to check. Again, this is the responsibility of the engine builder/assembler. I always do it when I build my motors!

Basically, I am telling you, C-Redrum, that we wanted to see the block in our hand. I spoke directly with Schaeffer auto and told him that this going around in circles thing was just gotten to be too much and that we needed the block back here for accurate investigation. ( the Bare Block!!! ) I truly am sorry for the hassle you are having with your motor, and we are willing to do what is right and take a look at your block and pay for shipping both ways, ONLY IF THERE IS A PROBLEM. Please try to understand that we were willing to work this out a long time ago. We just didn't like the way you were bashing us. I know that this guy Schaeffer says that the people that looked at the block have alot of experience, but is it with Honda???? I can guarantee that they don't know 1/2 of what we know about these specific motors. These are our specialty. Trust me when I say we know exactly what we are doing. Our business in the import industry is fuel by the fact that we supply the best blocks on the market, without question. ALso, just a side note, we do alot of military work. Believe me when I say that they hold the strictest tolerances anywhere. We are a shop that is ISO9002 and MILI45208, we know about quality. We could not get these certs without a good background. Oh well, I am rambling. Get me the block. IF there is a problem, WE WILL FIX IT!

Vince Tiaga Golden Eagle Mfg.

MiraiZ

seems like GE has been dropping the ball alot lately

X-Mazda 3 Racer

Says who???